In this past week's episode, "Ji Yeon," we learned from Captain Gault that those aboard the freighter believe that Benjamin Linus staged the crash of Oceanic 815 seen in "Confirmed Dead." So, case closed, right? We can put that little mystery to bed now. Oh wait, no we can't: this is Lost. Cases don't remain closed anymore than that guy in Monty Python and the Holy Grail stays dead. Cases keep popping up and muttering, "I'm not closed yet!" on this show.

There are three ways to view Gault's monologue about Ben's involvement in the staged crash. They are:

1. He's absolutely telling the truth.
2. He believes he is telling the truth.
3. Dude's totally lying.

Remember, he works for Charles Widmore, who wants to find the Island as much as Ben wants to protect it. Ostensibly, Widmore informed Gault about Linus' involvement with the crash, fed him a story about Ben's involvement, or merely informed him to pass on this false story for purposes yet unknown.

I'm not interested in taking sides on this matter, in that we simply don't have enough information to truly make a definitive call. However, I think it's equally likely that either Ben Linus or Charles Widmore are ultimately responsible for the staged crash. About that, I feel good. (I knew that I would.) So here I am, all Robert Frost-like. Two roads diverged in a Dharma wood, and I can totally travel both. How? By doing here what I generally do off-line about important Lost topics: arguing with myself.

For the purposes of the following, we have to first assume that the wreckage found in "Confirmed Dead" is in fact staged and not in fact the actual Oceanic 815 that left Sydney on September 22, 2004. After all, we only have official, in-show confirmation of this fact thanks to Gault. Before the season started, I posited a scenario in which the Lostaways were both alive on the Island AND in a plane crash at the bottom of the Sunda Trench, but I've abandoned that theory for two reasons.

Firstly, it's way more complicated than it need be, and while I enjoy making things insanely complicated as a general rule, that doesn't mean things NEED to be all Avril Lavigne-like. Secondly, there's a snippet of dialogue in which the news reporter watched by Daniel Faraday mentions that due to the depth of the wreckage, no bodies could actually be recovered. And that factoid makes a staged crash an almost complete likelihood. So, that's one assumption behind this theory.

The other assumption inherent in this argument is that we can take everything in Find815 and flush it down the toilet. Don't worry, this IS me writing this, and yes, I did just state that I will look at the show and only the show for clues, and no, I'm not going into canon/non-canon again. But I at least want to expressly say that I'm ignoring it for the purposes of today. That being said, Find815 did suggest some of the possibilities laid out below, and I didn't want to pretend I came up with those things on my own, either.

Whew. That's a lot of setup, but I think it was both necessary and incredibly entertaining in and of itself. So, with all that established, onto the online self-argument.

***

I don't even know why we're arguing this, McGee. Clearly it was Ben Linus.

Hey, me, once again you're a moron. It's obviously Charles Widmore.

You fool. Ben Linus is constantly six steps of everyone on this show. Even when it looks like he's beaten, he always comes out on top.

But let's not assign him God-like powers, either. If his reach is like Will Smith's cardio (ie, infinite), then the stakes for the show are dramatically reduced. We've long needed an adversary worthy of Ben Linus, and in Charles Widmore is that man.

So riddle me this, ye who obviously has a picture of Charles Widmore in your locker: how would CW assemble such a wreck in the first place?

Easy. Dude's totally rich. And he's been long obsessed with finding the Island, as evidenced by his purchase of the journal of the first mate of the Black Rock. Moreover, he seems to have sent people towards the general direction of the Island (Henry Gale, Desmond). Oceanic 815 was just another (and biggest to date) attempt to find the Island.

You so need to tell me what crack you're smoking, so I can buy myself some. You're forgetting that Ben Linus isn't exactly doing too shabby himself on the money side. You saw all that cash in his secret room. Moreover, I'm willing to wager that Mittelos Biosciences nets him a nice income. He's got the cash, and moreover, via Mittelos, access to all those cadavers found inside the ship.

But did you see Ben's look when Oceanic 815 first appeared in the sky over the Barracks? He looked pretty damn surprised, I must say. And looked as if he formulated a plan, on the spot, to take advantage of what literally fell out of the sky and into his creepy lap. You're going to sit there and tell me that in the three months or so between that crash and the freighter's arrival that Ben managed to stage a fairly accurate representation of the crash? I can't believe I share the same brain as you.

Trust me, the hate's a two-way street. It's Ben! This guy has a network that rivals most governments. And unlike most governments, he actually puts his networks to proper use. It's more likely to me that he staged the crash after identifying the type of plane that went down than your assumption that Charles Widmore staged the crash prior to September 22, 2004. Because that's what you're implying, right, you bone-headed balding freak?

Amen, it's almost like you read my mind. Wait, you are my mind. Hey, cheating! But yes, Charles staged the crash months/years before the actual event. Look, no one's gonna raise a ruckus if a single individual disappears, but if an entire plane disappears? That's something else altogether. And so he needed a backup plan, and one that could be found in order to draw off any search that could lead someone accidentally to the Island.

So wait, you're saying he wanted the crash to be found?

Exactly.

That makes no sense. Also, remember, Find815's non-canon, so bite me.

It's non-canon, and so is the Maxwell Group, but the idea behind both of those are still valid. The world would be placated by this discovery, and its depth would prevent any further inquiry, and so case closed. The world moves on, and the Island gets closer within reach.

But you're forgetting that the Oceanic 6 put a huge monkey wrench into that plan.

I cannot fathom how, ye with an even less cheery disposition than Ana Lucia.

Oooh, harsh with the Ana Lucia reference. (Also the whole "ye" stuff is mine, not yours. Back off.) But no: remember what Abaddon said to Naomi about the importance of there being no survivors. Suppose Ben recognized Oceanic 815 for what it was: the biggest assault on the Island's existence in decades. He recognized the plane as Widmore's work. And so, HE, not Widmore, staged a crash that could be found with a proper nudge to a proper salvage vessel.

I'm going to shoot you all Michael-style if you don't get to the point.

The point is that the Oceanic 6 function in Ben's mind as a check to Widmore's attempt to get to the Island. No one off the Island knows about it except for Widmore (as evidenced by Widmore's painting), but having six world-wide known individuals with knowledge of the Island? That could create a checks and balances system by which stalemate is achieved, the Island is protected, Widmore is thwarted, and Smokey lives to see another day.

Terrible.

Awful.

Mom always liked me best.

That doesn't even make sense.

Neither does your theory.

Let's let the readers decide. They usually have interesting things to contribute.

Fine by me, if it means I don't have to hear your yapping any more today.

***

Ryan also posts every 108 minutes over at Boob Tube Dude.

Comments

Very funny post, Ryan. It kinda reminds me of my self discussions about Lost too.

First comment! I never thought i'd live to see this day. I think I'm gonna have a Shannon freakout...

sin_laden | Mar 16, 2008 12:15:39 PM | #

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I was just waiting for you to throw out a "Ryan, you ignorant slut!"

I tend to believe it is Ben staging the crash but for good purposes. I think that this will be one of the first steps in making Ben more of a "good guy" leading up to German Vet Ben protecting the O6.

Blue Sean | Mar 16, 2008 1:49:21 PM | #

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Yeah...I'm definitely thinkin' it's Widmore. He has all the resources and money to make that crash happen. Plus, in addition to wanting to find the island, he doesn't want the island to be found for another reason: Desmond. It seems like he convinced Desmond to do this race and helped him find it, and he would do anything to convince Penny that he's dead. Of course, that's granted the only reason he doesn't want Desmond/Penny (Desny?) to happen is becuase he doesn't feel Des is worhty.

While Ben may have some power, outside of the island it's pretty much worthless. If he does actually have that $3.2 million, though, that might be something to consider. I just can't imagine that he has that many people working for him off the island though--it's not like he could have gotten Richard, Tom, Ethan, and Goodwin to go out, hijack the plane, and put in the Sunda Trench...

Lauren B | Mar 16, 2008 1:54:45 PM | #

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It's interesting your take on the Oceanic 6, Ryan. It's been theorized before that the Oceanic 6 were a product of some mastermind. Stands to reason it would be Ben, especially since Abbadon told Naomi that 815 had no survivors.

So, the Freighers are revealed to be false, not really going to rescue anyone. So the only way off the Island will be through Ben's good graces, which explains why A) they're all sticking to a cover story, B) why Sayid is forced into being Ben's hitman, and C) why only 6 made it out and the rest had to remain behind; they're either on Jacob's list, Ben's list, or they're all dead.

Other Sean | Mar 16, 2008 2:26:43 PM | #

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I don't trust the captain at all, and not because the secret note told me so. Anyone who gives up such detailed explanations on Lost certainly can't be trusted!

Ryan, if the wreckage was deep enough not to be recoverable, then how is it possible that they could account for all 324 bodies? It would be easily accepted that there were no survivors if the wreckage was found in the middle of the ocean, so why the need to stage 324 bodies?
Neither Widmore nor Ben would want any of the survivors to make it back to the real world. Ben only let Michael and Walt go because he knew the bearing he gave them would lead them to the freighter and thus back to the island. Which means he had to know the freighter was coming beforehand. And I wouldn't be surprised if Walt is the one banging on those pipes.

If Widmore was behind it, that's probably why Frank was included in Naomi's mission, to simply keep him out of the public eye. I'll bet he doesn't make it home.
I think something neither planned causes the O6 to be rescued and that Ben and Widmore end up making a deal to control them to keep the island secret.

Shari | Mar 16, 2008 4:20:43 PM | #

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I believe Widmore staged the crash. He definitely has the money and resources to do it. I've thought all along that he had planned the crash of Oceanic 815, possibly using Christian and Libby as agents in making sure certain people were on the plane. As a result, he would have to stage the found crash so that the real one would not be found. Genius. Pure evil genius.

Ben being the one behind the Oceanic 6 rescue also makes sense. He has the ability and resources to do it. He helps keep them safe, so that the secret stays safe. All the while, working from the outside to take Widmore out. This would also be why Abaddon is after the Oceanic 6. He knows they have information that would hurt their cause if it was told. Abaddon very well could be the one who gets them back to the Island.

Shaggysteve | Mar 16, 2008 4:38:09 PM | #

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Shari wrote "concerned" (once again) | Mar 17, 2008 2:44:26 AM | #

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Shari wrote: if the wreckage was deep enough not to be recoverable, then how is it possible that they could account for all 324 bodies? It would be easily accepted that there were no survivors if the wreckage was found in the middle of the ocean, so why the need to stage 324 bodies?

I've been assuming it's because the small deep-sea remote-operated-vehicle showed 324 bodies, even though it is too deep to get the equipment down there needed to actually recover the bodies.

If your question is concerning why did Widmore or Ben stage bodies in the first place, I assume it's because the wreckage was fairly intact and thus there would be at least skeletal remains (visible via the deep sea camera) in the (belted) seats for quite some time.

If you are questioning the need for a staging in the first place, then I'm more in tune with you. For I would think the pacific ocean is so huge and deep they would give up pretty soon anyway. That seems a less risky strategy than hoping that nobody (such as Lapidus) will see on corpse (on camera) that doesn't look like it should.

(After all, the ROV could be configured to bring back DNA samples of the pilot and others to prove they are fakes.) (Assuming the ROV folks aren't in on the scam, of course.)

So I'm hoping that there was more reason for the staging that just to give the powers that be a reason to call off the search.

"concerned" (once again) | Mar 17, 2008 2:56:12 AM | #

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Oops -- Only the first paragraph above should be in italics. (On my computer the whole comment is in italics.) Perhaps the powers that be are correct, Mark, and we shouldn't be messing with this stuff.

(I think the problem was caused by the aborted previous post, which was aborted because I now -- after a recent virus attack -- have most java scripts disabled most of the time.)

Again, my apologies.

"concerned" | Mar 17, 2008 3:19:00 AM | #

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Whoa doggy! Due to aforementioned computer problems (and family [relative] obligations) I haven't been on-line since my post of March 7th -- and boy have I missed a lot!

I just spent a couple of hours getting caught up (see Dark, most of us do read everything eventually), and I am absolutely blown away by everything!

Here I was all set to shout about how upset I was about the "B movie" trick in the latest episode (absolutely wasting, as Brian of the North and DJC already mentioned, a good ten minutes of screen time at a time when every second counts) when I read about Damen Lindelof's flip remark regarding the ending of the video game (and related matters regarding how they can't be bothered with worrying about whether non-mother-ship stuff is canon).

Instead of feeling satisfaction that I was right (apparently) all along (check my post of March 5th) that the ending was just a big joke on Damen's part, I felt as bad for those who felt ripped off by the game (and other non-mother-ship stuff) as I do for those of us (such as myself) who really get frustrated by the occasional lapses in writing on the show. (For instance, see my points regarding Eggtown Feb 27th.)

(Of course, just about everyone hates the tatoo episode and Nicki & Paolo.)

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I do feel the need to say that my feeling ripped off by the flash-forward has nothing to do with "how much you assumed Jin would be one of the Oceanic 6", as Ryan postulated. I didn't care much either way. I felt frustrated for the aforementioned reasons (which BrianOTN and djc articulated very well).

I find it interesting that most people seem to fall into one category or the other -- if they are really bothered by the videogame/ARG stuff, they aren't bothered so much by the lapses in writing or "B" movie tricks of the "mother ship" -- and vice versa. I guess it all comes down to you are bothered most by deficiencies in what you love (and/or invest your time in) the most.

I've never played a LOST ARG or videogame (or just about any other), but I feel I'm just as devout a fan as I've seen each of the seventy-some episodes probably an average of three times each, and (like Mark) and am an aspiring writer. (A few very minor credits so far.)

So let both sides join hands and admit we both have a right to be dismayed, and hope all of this unpleasantness is behind us.

"concerned" | Mar 17, 2008 4:13:30 AM | #

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A few quick questions/points:

1) I was very confused by the three dates on the tombstone... thanks LisaS for the plausable explanation.

2) I agree that a death date of the crash indicates the Jin wasn't one of the Oceanic 6/8, and furthermore that he could still be alive. But since Darlton didn't seem to much care about keeping Michael's appearance on the boat (nor Charlie' death) a surprise, maybe it will be Jin that dies this week -- non-surprising as that would be.

3) I think the name Zoe Bell finally just now rang for me! Was she the stuntperson on Xena who then came to the states? If so, perhaps LOST hired her in part because they wouldn't have to use a stunt-double for her suicide and could thus make it very realistic.

4) Great catch about John Galt/Gault, MK46! And yours was the best, most succinct, vivid description of "Shrugged" that I've ever heard or read!

Though in general I think all these literary references should be taken more as trying to interest kids (and adults!) in reading good books ("Bad Twin" aside) rather than looking for many clues to the show in them. (If you doubt this, just keep picturing Lindeloff laughing hysterically about the ending of the Lost game until anger helps your sanity return.)

5) Man, I guess I would seriously flunk an Asian studies test. Not only didn't I pick up on the year of the dragon bit, when the subtitle said the cost of the Panda was "50,000 won", not "50,000 yen" I assumed it was a typo. But I guess the "yen" is only used in Japan and the "won" in China? (And What do they use in Korea?)

Still, I forgive myself for not realizing it was a flash-back (not flash-forward) for one big reason, which I think we should all never forget: Jin wanting that Panda so bad (presumably for Sun) was very reminiscent of a certain other character wanting an inanimate object so bad that she went to what many would consider unbelievable lengths to get it. Need I say it? Kate? The airplane?

'Nuff said.

"concerned" | Mar 17, 2008 5:06:18 AM | #

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I've been completely invested in the idea of Ben having staged the crash since Find 815. For so many reasons, it works; the biggest reason of all being the ultimate protection of the Island from outside forces.

Having a fake plane crash site in the complete opposite direction of 815's flight path would have ensured the Island would remain secret indefinitely. Desmond's failsafe key turning and Penny Widmore detecting the event is the mythological wrench in the plans that moves the show's story away from "survive on the Island" to "defend the Island".

Has Charles Widmore been looking for this Island for a long time? Yes! Why? Because due to his relationship with the Hanso Foundation, he was one of the founding partners of the DHARMA Initiative (as evidenced by the painting in his office). He's had a vested interest in the Island for a long time, but due to the secrecy of the project, was never privy to its exact location, which was known only to Alvar Hanso and the DeGroots. Finding and purchasing the Black Rock journal was his first lead in pinpointing the Island's location. It's also highly likely that Penny either asked for his help to rescue Desmond, or he found out she was looking for him and had inadvertently found the Island herself.

On a side note, I've never understood why so many people assume Charles Widmore "sent" Desmond on a path to find the Island. Considering he could have gone in any direction he chose, I simply cannot see how Widmore was counting on Desmond to find the lost island. Desmond got there on his own accord. That still doesn't let Libby off the hook as a Widmore plant, though.

Jeff | Mar 17, 2008 6:45:38 AM | #

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Actually, the Won is Korean money.

It would seem more likely to me that Widmore staged the crash. We don't know what resources Ben actually DOES have.....YET. He would have to be more rich & powerful than any world leader or crime organization to pull off a feat of that magnetude from a remote island. Widmore makes more sense.
I think Concerned is right about it not being either Widmore or Ben who rescuses the losties. I think it's Penny.

Chris | Mar 17, 2008 6:46:53 AM | #

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I disagree. I think Penny is an end-game piece.

Jeff | Mar 17, 2008 6:54:45 AM | #

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ok, there's path A and there's path B. but if i peer down betweent he two, i can find another, convoluted deer trail in the woods.

Widmore has a whole bunch of people working for him. who's to say Ben's not his unwitting henchman? perhaps, in some crazy, Enron-esque, twisted path to ownership, Widmore owns Mittelos. therefore, Widmore is playing everyone...

mri | Mar 17, 2008 7:35:12 AM | #

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mri: ow, my brain asplode

Jeff | Mar 17, 2008 7:40:52 AM | #

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So, Jeff..........you think the Des/Penny love story will end tragically with the two being reuinited just before theyaccidentally buy it in a war between Widmore and Linus?

Chris | Mar 17, 2008 7:53:23 AM | #

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I actually think it'll end beautifully. Don't know why, but I'm picturing a montage with people going home and the people who stay on the Island watching them leave. IF Des and Penny are Adam and Eve, their burial seems to be one of respect and love of people who lived out their days in peace.

Regardless, I think Des and Penny will be the reason people can finally leave the Island in peace. I honestly can't say whether or not they'll die tragically, but I don't think so.

Jeff | Mar 17, 2008 8:07:02 AM | #

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Maybe it's just because I don't like him, but I really hate to give Ben too much power in any scenario. Obviously he's moving on and off the island and has great resources, but I also like to think of him as bound by island - like he wouldn't exactly be able to live in the "real" world because he's been away from it for so long. That said, I also think he has outside help, I mean how else did he get all the info on the passengers, etc. I guess he could have bought it (because I doubt he's an expert hacker), but he'd have to have contacts in the "real" world to do all we are suggesting he does. Which brings me back to how I don't like him and hate to give him so much power in the scenarios. Is it possible his "real" world connection/partner/help was Widmore, but now they've diverged on their goals for the island (keep it secret vs. take it over and use it), so now they are rivals rather than partners? Just a thought.

AndreaC | Mar 17, 2008 8:18:39 AM | #

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In addition to my above post, that means I think Ben and Widmore designed and executed the fake crash together.

AndreaC | Mar 17, 2008 8:22:14 AM | #

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Very possible, AndreaC!

If we take Ben at his word, it doesn't seem like he knows a ton about Widmore personally (hence the file/video on Widmore), as if he's an unknown outside threat being examined.

I we don't take Ben at his word, I can see your scenario possibly being the case.

Jeff | Mar 17, 2008 8:26:39 AM | #

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That's true, Jeff. I forgot about the video. Still, it could be Ben being manipulative again to claim he doesn't know anything about Widmore. I truly think Ben's power lies more with manipulating people than with actual legitimate power and resources, thus he'd need Widmore on that outside as a resource. But then again, why would Miles assume he had all that money (if you're not a believer that it was code)? Of course, that could be based on the lies Widmore fed him, I suppose.

AndreaC | Mar 17, 2008 8:55:57 AM | #

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It's great but also frustrating that it always comes back to: I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

I sure as heck hope the story speeds up again. I've enjoyed the last two episodes, but they pretty much killed the momentum of the story.

Jeff | Mar 17, 2008 9:01:18 AM | #

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OK This is off-topic, but it's something that occured ot me to ask just now, so I'm asking.

Why are the Others even there on the island?

I mean, ok, we've seen them kidnapping people, walking barefoot through the jungle and participating in book clubs and brainwashing, but what are they really doing there on the island in the first place?

I know they're trying to cure deaths in pregnancy on the island. OK, sure, but why?

Are they supposed to be working on the fabled Valenzetti equation? If so, I haven't seen much of that going on either.

No, it looks to me like they are just living an isolated, secretive, militant utopian society where no one is really allowed to leave, but also no one's really allowed to do anything either.

So, what's the deal? Why are they even there? Why does it matter that the island with its polar bears and smoke monsters and mobile cabins remains such a secret? And where the heck did all that stuff come from anyway?

And why the interest? Why do the 'concerned parties' really care where the island is and why do they want to find it so badly? I wanna know. Answer me!

You'd think there was oil on the island, so many people want to exploit it so badly.

Why couldn't Ben have just approached them from the jungle and said "Hi, I'm Ben. I live here on this island and me and my people would be happy to put you up for the evening and send you on your merry way in the morning back to your lives. Oh, and does one of you happen to be a spinal surgeon?" See? Problem solved. No loss of life. No one's the wiser about the island. All the jamming equipment is still in place, so no one can ever find the island. And, as an added bonus, BFL has significantly reduced the number of people who want to kill him on sight. Myself included.

And could someone please tell me how many razors and toothbrushes are on that island? Cause for people that have been stranded for 3 months, the only one that looks like he hasn't had a shave and a haircut every week is Sawyer, and everyone's teeth are perfect. Also, no malnutrition, but then there's all those tasty Dharma-O's for that, I guess.

I might be done now. I might think up some new and entirely off-topic questions later. Sorry for the hijack, but I gots to know these things. My curiosity abounds.

AdSlinger | Mar 17, 2008 10:04:10 AM | #

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I don't think there's a simple storyline answer, but essentially, there'd be no show if the Others were helpful to the castaways. There always needs to be conflict for a show to have a storyline.

| Mar 17, 2008 11:03:01 AM | #

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AdSlinger, you hit a good point and one I've been wondering myself. What the heck ARE the Others doing on the Island? Aside from the pregnancy issues, we know they are there for a reason and we know they are led by Jacob's word and he's supposedly a great man. So then, why is he a great man and what projects are they working on?

It seems strange to me that we still don't really know anything about the Others, but we're already halfway through the show. Something tells me their purpose is so intrinsically bound to the ultimate mysteries of the Island itself that we won't really have an idea until season 5 or 6.

Jeff | Mar 17, 2008 11:15:51 AM | #

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Sheesh Adslinger & Jeff! What are the Others doing on the island?! If you've been watching, it's fairly obvious that they are saving the world...from their perspective. So, by the way, is Widmore.

Brian of the North | Mar 17, 2008 11:53:54 AM | #

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BTW, Ryan, I'm siding with evil Ryan in as much as I think that Ben was totally semi-surpised (yes, I contradicted myself) to see the 815 air-show happen over his island. A bogus wreckage, complete with bodies, the too-many-coincidences-to-count passenger manifesto, and the flight path of the plane is beginning to make more and more sense that it was the work of Daddy Widmore. I think it's all part of his search and find/hide and deny plan for the island. Does he accomplish his goal of island domination? Apparently not with the existing time-line (remember the conversation between Abbalabbadingdong and Jabba the Hurley in the mental institution flash-forward). He was pissed and wanted to know about other survivors (more likely WHERE they are!). Why are the Oceanic 6 such celebrities?! Simple...Widmore couldn't make 'em "disappear" if they went all Britney on the press. Ben probably hires a kick arse PR firm to get their names and stories out. Too public of figures now, sorry Charley! And I'll take this opportunity to reitterate that this is the reason Jack does an uber-wig when he sees an obit and the funeral home appearance of, what I think, is Benjamin Don't Make Me a Workman Linus.

Brian of the North | Mar 17, 2008 12:07:57 PM | #

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"No one off the Island knows about it except for Widmore (as evidenced by Widmore's painting)"

What? The painting has Dharma elements in it, maybe it means he knows about the island...but how would it show that nobody else knows about it?

| Mar 17, 2008 12:21:32 PM | #

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BTW I, unfortunately, was wrong on both & Jin & Sun making it off the island together. Still, I'm pissed with the way the show employed the cheap slight-of-hand tricks to make you think they did. Yes, my eyebrows went up at the right times, ie Year of the Dragon, but I really expected more from the creators of the show. Not that I don't like a good con job in the right format (I'm looking at you M. Night!), but I call SHENANIGANS on Sun calling for Jin in the delivery room. For that matter, I call SHENANIGANS on Jack for telling a doctor to "go upstairs and ask his dad", when we know the old man is dead/undead at that point. Anyhoo, great job Ryan. Keep up the good work.

Brian of the North | Mar 17, 2008 12:21:36 PM | #

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Mar, I think he means Widmore knows about the Island, as evidenced by the painting, not that the painting itself shows no one else knows about the island.

I agree about the painting, but I take it a step further, saying that the painting isn't just evidence of knowing about the Island, but evidence of his involvement in the DHARMA Initiative.

Jeff | Mar 17, 2008 12:46:01 PM | #

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LOL, I had to call you Mar, since you didn't leave a name.

Jeff | Mar 17, 2008 12:52:04 PM | #

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Jeff, yup, that's what I meant, although I can see how I could have constructed that sentence better to convey my meaning. So I get how that could have thrown people off.

Widmore's painting is possible my favorite background item in the history of the show. The polar bear, upside down Buddha, "Namaste" written backwards---just implies soooo many things in a tantalizing manner.

Ryan | Mar 17, 2008 12:54:47 PM | #

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I think the others are mainly people who were on the island before dharma got there, whether they are "original inhabitants" or people who arrived later in various crashes and were assimilated.

I think they stay on the island because they are being manipulated by Ben, probably brainwashed as well. We've seen the crazy Clockwork Orange video that Carl was forced to watch. It may not have always been this way, but now it seems to be almost a cult. And those who don't buy into it, like Juliet, are forced into staying against their will.

milo | Mar 17, 2008 12:57:24 PM | #

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Ryan, it looks like the "namaste" in the painting wasn't really backwards. On set and in most of the shots it was forwards. Some shots were probably just reversed, either on purpose for some reason, or by accident.

milo | Mar 17, 2008 12:59:15 PM | #

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I'd like to know what Naomi has to do with all of this. When she was talking about putting the team together to go to the island, she's the one who even mentioned 815 survivors being there. What connections would she have to know there might be survivors of the crash? Was she closer to Widmore than we think, or did she have some weird abilities like Faraday, Miles, and everyone else? If she was partners with Widmore, why would she be asking IF there were survivors. Would Widmore stage a crash not knowing where the plane really was?

From what we've been told to believe, Desmond not pushing the button in the hatch caused the plane to crash. When Ben saw the plane, he sure did seem surprised. That only leaves Widmore with a chance of setting up a fake crash months ahead of time. I think when we find out what really caused the plane to crash is when we find out who set up the fake wreckage. But then again, I have no idea what's going on.

Aaron | Mar 17, 2008 1:04:54 PM | #

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I'm willing to bet the presence of that painting is really important. TPTB probably put it there as a little hint at Charles' overarching involvement in the story as a whole that's only now just starting to pay off.

Jeff | Mar 17, 2008 1:06:14 PM | #

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So, what's on set is canon, and what's aired isn't? Is that right?

(Yes, I am kidding.)

(Sorta.)

Ryan | Mar 17, 2008 1:06:38 PM | #

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Aaron,
I like your thoughts/observations about Naomi. Her little scene with Abaddon is one of the things that muddies my grand theory of the show. I'm very interested to see how that plays out.

Jeff | Mar 17, 2008 1:09:52 PM | #

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Ryan, LOL, do we really wanna open that can o' worms? :D

Jeff | Mar 17, 2008 1:11:15 PM | #

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What's on set isn't that relevant - the painting was shown not flipped for most of the scene, there were just one or two initial shots that were flipped.

More info here:
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Paintings_%28Widmore%29

And I'm still not sure what was meant by "No one off the Island knows about it except for Widmore (as evidenced by Widmore's painting)". Or does the painting just show that Widmore knows about the island, not that he's the only one?

milo | Mar 17, 2008 1:13:11 PM | #

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Aaron: Here's the only one I can possibly explain her knowledge of Oceanic 815, and it's a huge leap proven by nothing concrete, but here goes:

Charles knows of Desmond's destiny via Ms. Hawking. Therefore, he has a vested interest in finding the island, and gets someone inside of Oceanic 815 (probably the same people who helped stage the crash) to mess with the instruments so the plane has to turn towards the area of the anomoly at the time Des doesn't push the button.

Using the "salvaged black box" as a selling point, he assembles a crew and feeds them a story about how this plane crash "accidentally" revealed the location of an island, one that's difficult to get to (he sells it like Atlantis or something).

Thus, Naomi's query to Abaddon about any survivors: she wonders if anyone made it off the plane and to the island. It would be a miracle (as evidenced by the reception to the Oceanic 6) but possible.

That's my best guess now...I'd love to hear other thoughts!

Ryan | Mar 17, 2008 1:22:02 PM | #

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Here's a thought about all members of the 06. Lots of people on this blog and others have said the term O6 is just some media created idea they came up with when 6 crash victims suddenly reappeared. But really wasn't it the survivors themselves who came up with the term. We've seen Jack tell their story "8 survivors, 6 lived, ..." From this story, the media must have coined them the Oceanic 6. Really, the only reason I'm thinking this is because why would Jack include Aaron in one of his original 8? But now that I'm thinking, if 6 people came back to the real world, all of them would have to be included in the O6, not the O6 and 1/2

Aaron | Mar 17, 2008 1:35:14 PM | #

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Aaron: I'm pretty sure Jack didn't come up with the name on his own, if only because the whole thing makes me think of them trying to be like the Justice League and announcing their supergroup. (Jack would be "Captain Stubborn", Kate "Frau Freckles", etc.)

And I just can't see Sayid in spandex. *shudders*

Ryan | Mar 17, 2008 1:47:50 PM | #

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Captain Torturer at your service M-lady!

Brian of the North | Mar 17, 2008 2:07:55 PM | #

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As far as Naomi's query to Abaddon about survivors. I'm inclined to believe (due to the fact he knows of the staged crash) that he/Widmore do not want the world to know that there were survivors. Therefore, he either wants them killed or not taken off the Island ever. This is evident with the reaction from those on the freighter to Frank bringing them there.

As for the Black Box, how do know that isn't the actual black box from the Island crash site? Someone could have gotten it off the Island (Ben or Richard perhaps), or possibly retrieved by Frank when running one of his errands for the Captain.

Someone mentioned above that Ben and Widmore may have been in business with each other at some point. Perhaps Ben betrayed Widmore somehow, or didn't hold up his end of the bargain. This would be why they have orders to kill him, or at least capture him.

Shaggysteve | Mar 17, 2008 3:12:18 PM | #

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Shaggysteve-

yes, that was my point exactly. just another possibility that either Ben DID work for Widmore in the past and went rogue, or DOES work for Widmore but doesn't know it...

mri | Mar 17, 2008 5:00:31 PM | #

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