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'Lost': And baby makes two...
There are two ways to look at the narrative structure of "Ji Yeon," tonight's episode of Lost: extremely clever or extremely frustrating. There's really no way of getting around it. The whole "flash forward/flash back" intercutting, meant to make you think Jin was on his way to Future Sun when in fact he was simply Former Jin running errands for Papa Paik, left you speechless with delight or shouting phrases not fit for a website such as this.
I think a lot of this has to do with how much you assumed Jin would be one of the Oceanic 6. I tried to place odds on the possible remaining members of the group, and since Sun ranked highest (no way this show kills a pregnant woman), I marked Jin down decidedly lower. Why? Well, for a very good reason: none of the Oceanic 6 are remotely happy about having left the Island. Jack's a pill popper, Kate's left raising Claire's baby, Hurley's anxious for a return to the psyche ward, and Sayid's off being Ben's weaponized errand boy. It would be weird now to show Sun, Jin, and Ji Yeon chillin' at Bed, Bath and Beyond, no?
The mythology freak in me was trying to piece together the puzzle: Why is Sun seemingly packing for a trip to the hospital, then surprised to go into labor? Why does Jin need a panda so frickin' badly? Why does Sun NEED Jin to be there? During commercial breaks, I feverishly entertained this theory in which Sun and Jin were being watched by Team Abaddon, planned to stage a miscarriage and then sneak the baby out of the hospital via the panda. And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why they only let me recap the shows, not write them.
Instead, of course, we got the show's first dual timeline, off-Island narrative, in which Sun gives labor after leaving the Island and Jin is still a wet-behind-the-ears lackey for Mr. Paik, with nary an idea of ever becoming a father himself. And all that's left of Jin in a post-Island world is the name he gave his unborn daughter. If you knew your Chinese Zodiac, you probably picked up on this right away, as the last Year of the Dragon was between February 5, 2000 and January 23, 2001. The show's essentially counting on the majority of us to be ignorant of that fact, and you know what? We are pretty ignorant people as a whole, so it worked. (Incidentally, that was not only the Year of the Dragon, but in particular, Year of the Metal Dragon, which pretty much makes that the Coolest Year Ever.)
So while you may have thought Jin was the sixth and final member of the Oceanic 6, you'd be very wrong. While the promos for Eggtown seemed to indicate that Aaron was the fifth member of the group (thereby making Sun the 6th), the show itself has not yet made this claim. Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley, and Sun have all been explicitly identified as members of the group, and until we get a similarly concrete moniker bestowed upon Aaron, I maintain this group is not yet complete.
If you noticed the date on Jin's gravestone, you saw 9/22/2004 as the date of his death: the day of the crash. This could mean that Jin is one of the two passengers that survived the crash but later died (in Jack's fictional narrative of post-crash events) or could simply be considered to be one of the unlucky ones at the bottom of the ocean. In either case, as far as the world at large knows, Jin never lived a day beyond the crash. This ties into other elements we've seen so far this season, such as Hurley disavowing any knowledge of Ana-Lucia in this season's first episode. What can we make of this?
A piece of the puzzle may have fallen into place thanks to an incredible monologue delivered by Gault, widely feared captain of the freighter. Said monologue starts with the reveal of the supposed black box on Oceanic 815, supposedly procured by Charles Widmore, which supposedly proved that Benjamin Linus staged the crash of Oceanic 815. I hedge everything in that narrative because it won't be long, I'm sure, before we hear the exact same story from Ben Linus about Charles Widmore staging the crash. That will be one epic "he said/he said," people.
Whatever the true version, Gault confirms that the discovery of the plane preceded the freighter's arrival offshore of the Island, which to me is an important element to nail down. I think back to Abaddon's insistence to Naomi in "Confirmed Dead" that, "There were NO survivors," and wonder exactly just why the existence of the Oceanic 6 rattles Team Abaddon so much. But while it's important, it's not necessarily illuminating.
After all, if this is true, that established a timeline in which, over the course of three months, a plane went down, an exhaustive search was conducted, a STAGED VERSION OF THE CRASH was discovered, a crew of people with specific skills was assembled, specific scientific instruments were obtained, a freighter left shores for parts suddenly known, and oh yes, there's the little bit about Michael changing his name and getting a job aboard the very ship currently parked off said Island. That's one incredibly busy twelve weeks.
My conclusion? Lots of events were set in motion long before September 22, 2004. Events planned by multiple, competing parties. Parties with separate agendas. Things including, but not limited to: getting players in the proper position (people to the Island, people on Oceanic 815) and obtaining the proper resources (a large freighter, a large number of cadavers), all in the name of the Island. Which one's the good guy? Ben Linus? Charles Widmore? Both? Neither? All are in play at this point. But one of those men planted that fake wreck at the bottom of the Sunda Trench before Oceanic 815 crashed on the Island, and as such, what we're witnessing on Lost is nothing less than people struggling helpless as forces they can't see use them as pawns in game whose rules they don't understand. And given Sayid's confused, pained, helpless expression in "The Constant," I'd say the Oceanic 6 aren't much better off post-Island than they were on it.
As for Michael: I didn't want to merely mention him and forget all about him, but thanks, ABC promo monkeys. And thanks, union-rules-that-require-Lost-to-constantly-show-Harold- Perrineau-in-every-opening-credit-sequence-this-season for completely ruining that surprise for us. I'll have more to say about Michael and his Rampage of Destruction upon the freighter's navigational systems and communication devices, but why would Ben Linus want this freighter to remain unable to leave the proximity of the Island? Curiouser and curiouser...
Moving away from the mystery that is "Kevin Johnson" for a moment, and mysteries in general, to celebrate the quieter, character-based moments that used to happen all the time in the show but have fallen to the wayside in recent years as new characters kept coming into the fold. Re-introducing Bernard to the show after weeks away was a beautiful stroke, as only Bernard could have quelled the raging fisherman that was Jin. His words produced not only a calmer Jin, but also produced the elusive kharma fish from the depths of the ocean. Not a bad fishing trip by any stretch.
As for Jin's scenes with his wife...well, I've always been a sucker for their chemistry. One of my favorite all-time scenes in Lost history is their goodbye in Season 1, and so naturally it got misty round these parts when they reconciled in their tent, even while I managed to blurt out, "Dude, you're so dead in the future, aren't you," through the semi-tears.
You also had to love all the "Juliet who cried wolf" material that preceded it, with her inability to prevent Sun from joining Team Locke forcing her to tell Jin about his wife's affair. (See, this is why you should never learn a second language, people...it'll only come back to haunt you.) Her Season 4 arc seems to be about redemption, which means I have her penciled in to die sometime before the end of the season. If you want to live on Lost, it's best not to achieve peace with yourself. It only goes downhill from there.
Five more things I noticed tonight:
- Hi, Regina. Whoops, I mean bye, Regina. That was weird, even for this show. I can't even imagine how the producers pitched that character. "She's illiterate, she's crazy, she's Regina!" Does hanging near the Island give you a case of the freakies, maybe a lower dose version of passing through the electromagnetic anomalies?
- When Hurley asks Sun if anyone else has come, she says no, to which he replies, "Good." At that point, was I the only one who expected them to start suddenly making out? Because for a nanosecond I went there, and that image will pretty much stay with me until the day I die. (But seriously: why is that a good thing that Jack, Kate, Sayid, and Player to Be Named Later didn't show up?)
- Gault mentioned that Lapidus was off running an errand. Assuming he didn't go on a Taco Bell run, where do you think he went, and to what purpose? Seems like he left after an awfully important meeting.
- ""Yi Jeon" apparently translates as "heavenly patience." Is this a clue about the whereabouts of Jin and the others that didn't make it off the Island? Is not only the date inscribed upon Jin's tombstone a lie, but is in fact his actual death itself a lie?
- I'm no fan of lima beans, so I'm curious about the "problem in the kitchen" alluded to by Lapidus...part of Michael's merry pranks? Something akin to the bloody wall? Or was there...an incident? (OK, probably not an incident. I doubt the freighter has an orientation film conducted by Marvin Candle about the proper procedures for making pancakes.)
- Sayid seemed convinced that someone was banging repeatedly on the ship's pipes. I guess we can assume it was Michael, but towards what purpose? Ship destruction? Morse code? The construction of a giant Metal Dragon in honor of Jin's flashbacks? In any case, I think we're meant to wonder what was going on.
Very dense, sometimes frustrating, but overall rewarding episode. Things are movingly slightly slower than I'd like, but with the reintroduction of Michael next week, we should get right back into the narrative swing of things...just in time for a five week hiatus until new episodes can be produced. Thanks, writers' strike. Thanks a ton.
But enough about my thoughts...let's hear yours! Do we know all members of the Oceanic 6, or does one remain? Is Jin still on the Island, or truly dead? Do you think Ben really staged the crash, or is Gault lying? Heck, is Widmore lying to Gault? Leave your impressions about these topics, or any others you like, below! And be sure to check out more news, theories, and insight over at Zap2It's Guide to Lost.
Ryan also posts every 108 minutes over at Boob Tube Dude.
I loved the episode and your post!!
Jerry | Mar 13, 2008 9:01:14 PM | #Do the promos for Lost have to be as confusing as the show itself? Do we know all Oceanic 6 now or don't we? After Kate's episode, I wasn't convinced Aaron was one of the six. Now with only Sun revealed, I still have no clue. Oh well.
Yes Ryan, I also thought for a second (only a second) Sun and Hurley were gonna make out.
At the beginning of the episode I thought both Sun and Jin were having a flashback. Maybe she was pregnant before the crash but something went wrong. Then at the end of the ep. they would show Sun in the future w/ baby. But that whole "she's one of the Oceanic 6" thing threw that theory out the window.
I'm also not convinced Jin's really dead. If he died the day of the crash, how would they explain Sun's pregnancy? But then again he could have died on the island and Sun would want to bring his body back home (paving the way for Jack's fake story). I have no idea.
Oh, do we know if Desmond has all his memories back?
Aaron | Mar 13, 2008 9:15:14 PM | #I ALSO was suddenly overcome by the fear that Jin and Hurley would start making out. Also, I was so confused by the mix of flashbacks and flashforwards (I was wondering if maybe Jin and Sun had divorced and Jin had already found someone else). It didn't become clear to me until I saw the grave. I guess I'm slow like that.
I personally think the Oceanic 6 are confirmed, though I could be wrong. I also think Jin is dead, based on the fact that Sun and Hurley seem to believe that he is dead. Even if the grave was fake, I can't see that they would visit it, if Jin was not dead. But I could be wrong.
And so next week someone is to die... and Jin is one of the faces they show. It would be more of a surprise if someone else dies instead. I'm very fearful that there could be many deaths by the time the season ends. I'm pretty sure something terrible and crazy will happen.
What's that? Vindication 2 weeks in a row?!
Thought I'd point out that I called Ben staging the crash AND Charles Widmore sending the freighter back in February (http://blog.zap2it.com/lost/2008/02/lost-generation.html#comment-103379312).
Jeff | Mar 13, 2008 9:21:02 PM | #I can't confirm this..but I believe a read some editorial that they are holding off on airing episode 8, to instead have it kick off the final 6 episodes...can you confirm that for me Ryan?
Marino | Mar 13, 2008 9:24:26 PM | #Billiam,
Perhaps to visit the grave to keep up the appearance that he is dead..to keep the appearance of the "lie" they are all pledged to tell.
Marino | Mar 13, 2008 9:26:17 PM | #We're supposed to know by the end of this bloc of episodes, but I thought we'd know by the end of the tonight. So hopefully before hiatus we'll know, but I wouldn't be surprised if we go into the break still not knowing definitively.
Ryan | Mar 13, 2008 9:29:30 PM | #Did anyone else notice the TV show Sun had on in the first flashforward? I would swear that it was the episode of the Stripper/Spy show that Niki or Paulo and Niki fame was in prior to the crash.
Joni | Mar 13, 2008 9:29:46 PM | #What an episode tonight ... those writers know how to make me look at my tv with my jaw dropped to the floor ...
Thanks guys ... amazing!
Erwin | Mar 13, 2008 9:30:33 PM | #Jeff, don't you know self promotion is the mating call of the mute button? AND YES, I also thought that was Niki's show on the TV (I knew I wasn't the only one to see that).
Anyway,I think the scenes on the boat bring up more questions that Jin/Sun. I'm waiting to find out who Abaddon really works for (if anyone). The captain said Widmore got possession of the 815 black box. So far, what real connection do we have for Widmore and the plane? Maybe Libby? So why would he be so interested in the crash unless he knew they would crash on the island (or some Black Rock tie in). That leads back to Abaddon. Maybe he told Naomi there were no survivors of 815 because he's the one who staged the crash site.
As far as Michael goes, do we think he changed his name to fake out the boaties, or did his memory get wiped while leaving the island?
ARob | Mar 13, 2008 9:34:25 PM | #Oh one more thing, does anyone else notice the Hurley, Jin, Sun connection. Hurley shows up in the future w/ Sun. And in one of Jin's flashbacks, wasn't Hurley on TV getting his lottery check while Jin was going to kill someone?
ARob | Mar 13, 2008 9:41:21 PM | #ARob: My impression was Michael didn't wanna clean up the mess because he didn't want Sayid to see him, which implies to me that his memory is intact.
Ryan | Mar 13, 2008 9:43:31 PM | #I think the sickness Rousseau always talks about has hit the ship. It seems to be making people crazy and/or suicidal.
Aw, Hurley coming all the way to Seoul to see the baby was sweet. And thanks Ryan for putting that creepy picture of them making out in my head!
I think Jin is still alive on the island. They either got seperated somehow or I could see him giving up his place to someone else if they were forced to only allow a certain number of people to leave. Claire comes to mind. Like Bernard said, it would be the right thing to do, to let a mother and child take his place. It would also explain how Kate ended up with Aaron if something happened to Claire after they left the island.
I was faked out for awhile that Jin was an O6 too. That phone was a clue too, so big and clunky! But it seemed to suggest that Aaron is not considered an O6 because they were leading us to believe that Jin and Sun were the final 2, which wouldn't be possible if Aaron was #5. Of course they thought Michael being the man on the boat was a shocking reveal too. My only question is where did Walt end up?
I understand that Juliet was trying to save Sun, but that was a cold, calculating move she made. That's what's great about her character tho, one episode you like and trust her, the next you don't.
It seemed obvious to me that Jin was one of the Oceanic 6, but he died sometime in the six or seven months since the rescue. What am I missing? He's buried on solid ground!
I wasn't fooled by the Jin/Sun flash forward/flash backward. I kept looking for some proof that Jin was heading toward his *own* birthing ritual, and I never saw it.
So I think we've seen the Oceanic 6 -- the four established characters plus Sun and Jin, except that Jin doesn't live long past the rescue. Aaron doesn't count.
All that aside, I still harbor a suspicion that many days/months/years have passed in the "real" world than passed in the "Lost" world. That explains the Rebecca Madder character's response a couple of episodes ago.
dbkirby | Mar 13, 2008 10:04:11 PM | #Shari: Brilliant call on the sickness. I think that's spot on.
So why do some people get sick but others don't? Hmmmm...
Ryan | Mar 13, 2008 10:15:41 PM | #ME TOO When Hurley said "Good" I was like? He can not be her husband or somthing haha I was actually expecting Juliet to be at the door when Sun opened it. Great episode Micheal'd return good and hes working for the freigtor thats good but Im hoping that Walts safe otherwise Season 2 was a waste.
Tyson | Mar 13, 2008 10:16:40 PM | #wow! that was an episode!
1) they showed michael early on the episode. when regina jumped and everybody looked at the sea, michael was one of them, with a hood on.
2) i really thought the big moment of the night was a non platonic relationship between sun and hurley. for a second, i was like wtf this is gross! and not the usual wtf this is a nice twist
3) jin is seriously NOT dead. his time of death, the way sun looked at the grave, the way she said the words I MISS YOU. it appealed to me as though she knows there is a chance to meet him again in this world. maybe mr paik want jin dead or maybe he didnt get off the island.
4) juliet is a bitch.
5) the fisherman scene was really really powerful. classic lost scene. the music, the delivery of the lines and the timing of the fish catch. wonderful!
james | Mar 13, 2008 10:18:35 PM | #I would also like to mention that though Daniel Dae Kim will return to the show every person who has gotten a DUI on this show, has had there character gone dead. I dont think its a coincidence anymore.
Tyson | Mar 13, 2008 10:18:35 PM | #It's been bugging me since the show ended: where have I seen this whole "woman mourning for a man supposedly dead who isn't" storyline before, and then I realized it was done on another Bad Robot show, Alias.
So, potentially, Jin's hanging out with Vaughn somewhere. All you Jin lovers, take heart.
Ryan | Mar 13, 2008 10:26:41 PM | #I'm more than impressed with the speed in which Jin is picking up english. I wonder if this is yet another one of the mysterious side effects of the island.
Matt | Mar 13, 2008 10:30:34 PM | #Maybe the sickness only effects people on ships. The 815ers don't seem to have it. The freighter folks,
Rousseau's crew, perhaps even the Black Rock crew have all been susceptible. Or maybe Michael is a carrier and he brought it with him to the freighter.
I still hope Jin is alive, but they did play that beautiful song (Life and Death I think it's called) when they went to visit the grave. The same song they played when Boone and Charlie died.
And I'm amazed that so many people thought Hurley and Sun were going to go....there. It never crossed my mind at all. Because, NO!
Billiam - I also was thinking at one point that Sun and Jin got divorced & Jin moved on rather quickly. And at the end when Sun heard the knock at the door, I thought maybe it was HER new man. Then she opens the door and it's Hurley and I'm like "Huh? Didn't see THAT coming..."
Anyway, I did wonder if the were both flash-forwards and backwards, but even at the end I was totally confused if that was so. I'd read that flash-fwds never have the 'whoosh' sound, but I'd read that in the popups a few episodes back and since I've been told here that the popups Cannot Be Trusted...I didn't know what to think.
I still don't.
As to Michael, a bit of a letdown, since it was the obvious choice (if they really wanted it to be shocking, they should have done the reveal a lot sooner, esp. with his name in the credits every week).
DanC | Mar 13, 2008 10:32:44 PM | #I also thought it was a bit creepy with Jin and Hurley. Wonder what is going on there? My deep breath moment was the Captain talking about the dead bodies. Did Ben use the bodies from the first DHARMA annihilation to stage the Oceanic 815 crash? Whose bodies are those?
Sherry | Mar 13, 2008 10:39:28 PM | #I meant Sun and Hurley, BTW
Sherry | Mar 13, 2008 10:44:02 PM | #Great episode and I damn near cried as the revelation hit me that Jin was dead. Everything was there to set up that scene. It reminded me when Xander escorted Willow to see Tara and I can't help but to think it was also shot the same way. But I digress...
I was excited to finally see Michael, but upon seeing him I came up with a new theory.
I really don't think that Michael is Ben's mole. The note that was slid into the room said "Don't Trust the Captain", but after actually HEARING what the captain had to say, I didn't think that Michael would be THAT stupid to think that the Captain was not to be trusted. If he is the spy then it wouldn't make sense for him to tell Sayid, the King of Truth-getting" to NOT trust the captain, but instead to find a way to reach the captain.
Oh and can someone tell me how to do italics here? I feel like when I do caps that I am screaming.
Mark O. Estes | Mar 13, 2008 10:54:37 PM | #michael IS the spy.
the whole DO NOT TRUST THE CAPTAIN thing is to confuse sayid.
who is the good guy? do i trust the captain? do i trust the note? why is michael here? etc
james | Mar 13, 2008 11:13:32 PM | #Why would Michael go out of his way to confuse Sayid? That doesn't make any sense and it makes stuff more complicated than need be.
Mark O. Estes | Mar 13, 2008 11:28:12 PM | #For James up yonder: I scared my cats whenever Juliet told Jin that Sun had cheated on him, because I all but jumped out of my chair and shouted, "YOU BITCH!" (which I rarely ever use when describing a woman, by the way). Then I got really embarrassed, sat back down and wondered why I was yelling at a fictional character on a TV show. Can't blame the Nyquil this week, either, ha-ha. I wasn't thinking along the lines of others who were expecting Hurley and Sun to start making out (what do you people put in your coffee anyways, hm?), but I did wonder why he and Sun had developed such an apparently strong friendship, when that wasn't as much in evidence while they were on The Island. True, Hurley was kind of everybody's best bud, but Sun didn't seem to spend a lot of time with him, really. As for Jin's role in the slightly schizophrenic episode, I'm not sure I agree that he is dead either.
I'll throw back out my parallel universe theory. For one thing, those on the frieghter seem to be going slightly loopy, perhaps because the ship is currently stationed at a connecting point among/between the alternate timelines. By my count, if this theory is possible, there are three: the first involves the crash of Oceanic Flight 815 into the water, killing everyone on board (which has been mentioned more than once, and was "proven" with Gault's display of the black box from the wreckage); the second involves the plane crashing onto The Island, killing nearly everyone on board, with only a few being eventually rescued, with their lives becoming more hellish than they were before the crash; and the third timeline, whereby the plane crashed as mentioned, with some being rescued and their lives turning out for the better. What I think the show is leading up to is one central, overriding event that is the break-away point for these alternate universes/timelines to come into being. Somehow, both Widmore and Ben Linus have found a way to manipulate this point/these points for their own purposes. What those are remains to be seen. At the moment, I'm seeing Widmore as less of a villain than previously imagined, at least when compared to Ben, who reminds me of Hitler when he was still relatively sane.
As for the Oceanic Six, so far this season, we have seen Jack, Kate and Hurley post-rescue (apparently) in both dire and not-so-bad circumstances. If there are three separate timelines that exist, this may be why there seems to be such a discrepancy between episodes featuring the flash-forwards, particularly with Hurley. In the first instance where he is shown, Hurley is back in the psychiatric hospital after a mad dash through the streets with his car. In the second (tonight's), he is clean-cut (for Hurley), seemingly in control of his emotions, happy and very glad to be with Sun. I just find it odd that Hurley either went from mad to glad (if you use the episodes as a chronological guide), or happy to backwards-slid nutters. True, there are many episodes left to go, but Hurley's behavior post-rescue just doesn't jibe with me, if he is existing in the same and only timeline.
Anyway, I have no idea if this is where the writers are going, or if my thoughts are even valid, but it's been tumbling around my somewhat-warped mind for awhile now. At least with this show, I don't mind being proven wrong, because it sure is a lot of fun hypothesizing. Too bad there were signposts trumpeting Michael's return from the first episode of this season; kinda ruined the "surprise." Truth be told, I'd still have rather it been Walt, but eh. What a ride, what a ride. Oh, as for the lima beans--if the freighter is on a connection point between timelines, maybe every time the cook opens the cupboard, there are alternate universe versions of canned limas. Now wouldn't that suck? Too bad it wasn't Belgian chocolate or something...
Dark Disciple | Mar 13, 2008 11:30:53 PM | #Did anyone else notice the toy dragon made a VERY similar sound to the smoke monster?
If Michael is currently Kevin Johnson, I Seriously doubt he would be the last of the O-6er's as he would either stay under as Ben's spy or be killed before the "rescue"
Greg | Mar 13, 2008 11:36:57 PM | #Mark: I'm not sure it's making things more complicated so much as keeping things completely in line with established psychology, motivation, and reaction.
Given what Michael's done to date in the name of saving his son, is passing a note really the most outrageous/unbelievable thing he's ever accomplished? Even more than shooting Ana Lucia? Even more than leading his friends into a certain trap?
Given that Michael's working for Ben, and given that Sayid sooner or later starts working for Ben, I'd say it's not a case of making things more complicated at all. It's just setting the stage for things later to come.
Ryan | Mar 13, 2008 11:37:12 PM | #First off, I agree about how they handled the Jin & Sun flashes; I was PISSED! Not because it was annoying or because it was brilliant, but because it was both; it was genius, AND annoying that I fell for it. That being said though, I called it when I predicted Sun or Jin would get off the Island, but not both.
Would they really kill Jin? Dunno, but it seems a major theme running through the show is guys who would die to save their women. Charlie did it, you know Bernard would, Jack decided to stay a hostage to save Kate, and Jin would do anything to protect Sun. Which means, there's a good chance that something will happen in which he'll go all heroic, and get killed for it.
Unless, of course, the tombstone is just another brick in the house of lies that the Oceanic 6 have built. "Why was Sun crying, at Jin's grave no less?" you might be saying. Well, if you were sent on what is apparently a one-way trip away from paradise, unable to see the one you love ever again, wouldn't you be pretty damn torn up about it? So she probably went to the grave, as it was something material for her to connect to Jin, even though he's still alive. It's possible, if not plausible, eh? And consider that Hurley was glad that Jack, Kate, Sayid, and Mystery Person didn't show up to see the baby; seems to me like, if they were all keeping some kind of big secret, having a mini-reunion would probably draw alot of unwanted attention.
But I digress. I dunno whats worse at this point, not knowing the last member of the Final Five cylons or not knowing the final member of the Oceanic 6.
Some further notes:
A) I agree about Michael not wanting to clean the blood, because he didn't want Sayid seeing him.
B) Regina seemed to be pretty upset about something, thus pushing her to suicide. Regina also spoke with a British accent. Hmm, perhaps R.G. on Naomi's bracelet has been revealed? I bet they were lovers, and Lapidus told her about Naomi's death.
C) Benjamin Freakin Linus strikes again! So now he may very well be behind the faked crash of 815. Great. I mean, I get that Ben is a twisted little man, and he doesn't want people to come to the Island. This is probably why he had Michael sabotage the ship repeatedly; if they get permanently stuck in the doldrums, they might all go insane and kill each other, thus eliminating Ben's biggest threat.
But what I DON'T understand is how a guy who has lived on a remote island all of his life has built himself a global empire of Bond villain proportions, gaining so much power and wealth as to fake an airline crash and convince one Miles Straum that he's a billionaire.
Anyway, I look forward to next week's show. Not looking forward to the hiatus, but oh well, it'll allow them to finish the season strong.
Other Sean | Mar 13, 2008 11:39:04 PM | #Michael's on the boat under a fake name... but it's never been explicity pointed out he's working for Ben. Who's to say Ben wasn't referring to someone else when he said he has a man on the boat? Maybe two or three?
Joel | Mar 14, 2008 12:16:56 AM | #Well, because Ben told Locke who his spy way, and according to the promo for next week's episode, Locke tells everyone else in his camp at New Otherton. Also, Ben alludes to "a father going to great lengths for his son" in the same promo.
Other Sean | Mar 14, 2008 12:52:29 AM | #Joel: I agree with you 100%. That's too much information for one man to try to apprehend. It has to be a system of people, people who have ties in the world and that has been playing the game for quite sometime. Michael is not a calm collected person so he is bound to mess up on something. I think that if Michael is or is not the "man" that he has help on that boat somewhere.
Mark O. Estes | Mar 14, 2008 12:58:38 AM | #Other Sean: But come on, man, Michael is a great shocker for the New Othertons to be duped into. Ben is a great manipulative liar and can use Michael as a wild card for them to come to his side. I am in the bed so I will have to think on this more.
Mark O. Estes | Mar 14, 2008 1:01:50 AM | #I think Hurley's "Good" comment simply meant that he had no desire to see any of the others. I'm guessing Jack, Kate, and perhaps Sayid were the main ones responsible for whatever happened to get them off the island, and Jack is probably the one who came up with their fake story and got everyone else to go along with it. Hurley had a similarly chilly response when Jack came to him in the institution to make sure he stayed quiet.
Eddie | Mar 14, 2008 1:06:20 AM | #So, if Ben is responsible for the plane wreckage that was found 1) where'd he get the 324 bodies and 2) where'd he get the plane?
The bodies from the purge where in an open pit (the one Locke fell into) and even if we were to assume that he and/or his minions dug up some of them (maybe that's why it was an open grave?), they should have been way more decomposed than then the plane crash bodies. Also, I'd think that the "purged" bodies would not be pliable enough to put into a plane seat. The image of the captain that Lapdius saw, didn't look nearly as bad as the "purged bodies we saw.
And where'd he get a plane? The Losties plane was ripped up and deposited all over the island and the ocean. It's not like he could float the bits out to the "crash site". And even if he bought one (there's a place north of Tucson, AZ that sells 747s), he'd still have to load up a bunch of corpses and fly it, and then crash it into the ocean, without anybody missing THAT plane.
Also, I think that the tapping that Sayid and Desmond heard before the Doctor walked in was to agitate them. Desmond was clearly annoyed, Sayid however seemed to understand what it was. Also, if it was Morse code, you'd think Sayid, the ex-communications officer who can make a satellite call with nothing more than a butt-set and a 12 volt battery, would have been telling Desmond either "be quite, I'm listening" or "the tapping is saying ..."
Lastly, I think it was supposed to be clear that both Desmond and Sayid knew Michael, and he them, and they were playing along with his alias. Since Faraday et al knew all the Oceanic 815er's names, I'd assume the captain did too, and I think that Michael needed to take an alias, not that he doesn't know who he is.
And my take on Jin is that since his tombstone lists his death date as 9/22/04, he "died in the plane crash" and wasn't one of the two who lived a short time (otherwise, his death date would be 9/23 or the like). Sun could easily say that she got pregnant right before 9/22, I mean it was only about a month on island when she did get pregnant, I think they could pass that off on the show as close enough. As for his actual fate, I think he remained on the island - why else would she call out for him in the hospital?
Just my two cents...
kevin | Mar 14, 2008 1:27:20 AM | #Great review Ryan. And, No, you're not the only one who thought for moment that Sun and Hurley were about to get their "groove on". I even had a brief WTF moment and wondered if Hurley was the "baby Daddy". I knew all along that both Jin and Sun could NOT be Oceanic 6. Simply because it would have wasted a separate "revelation" ep from the producers.
Frustrated? More like angry for the cheap trickery of last night's episode. I could forgive the "non canon" crap surrounding the games and whatnot, but to inject an almost comical slight of hand type of storytelling into the series leaves me watching the rest with a serious grain of salt.
Brian of the North | Mar 14, 2008 2:58:15 AM | #Maybe when Hurley asked if anyone else came, he was referring to the creepy guy who visited him in the psych ward, posing as the airline rep, who wanted to offer him better accommodations...
Rina | Mar 14, 2008 3:40:20 AM | #I was thinking that maybe the "kitchen problem" and tapping noises, along with people getting driven crazy on the freighter, might have something to do with Walt. Maybe he's locked up somewhere on the freighter and having "Room 23" freakouts?
Also, I did think Hurley and Sun were about to get it on after he said "good." Gross images. And I was also trying to figure out how big Hurley's suit must be, because he was looking HUGE.
Wasn't tricked by the flash-forward/flashback stuff. Jin's timeline felt very strange, so that was my theory from my beginning. My whole family agreed, and we were right at the end.
Al | Mar 14, 2008 4:34:05 AM | #At first, Jin's timeline felt like a nightmare, not a flash back/forward. Esp in the scenes where the taxi drove off with the panda, the phone got run over, there were no more pandas, etc. Sort of like that ever-worsening (?) nightmare with no solution. I was afraid it wasn't going to be a flash at all and just a cheap, on-island dream sequence of an anxious first time father.
But what frustrated me is that Jin's flash did nothing to advance or enlighten the overall storyline. It just "played" the viewer with no payoff of additional information.
The fan base is so hungry for "new Lost" information, it felt like a total waste of 10 minutes of very valuable time that could have been put to better use. (in my opinion) Especially with only one remaining episode before another "break."
djc | Mar 14, 2008 4:47:35 AM | #Great post, Ryan and great responses, everyone.
Did anyone ever read "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand? Main character was John Galt, a man that no one ever saw but who was a part of a popular catch-phrase when something was unexplainable. "Who is John Gault?" Loved it.
Quoting from Wikipedia: ""Who is John Galt?" It is a reflection of their helplessness, as the saying means "Don't ask important questions, because we don't have answers."
Another quote: "The question "Who is John Galt?" is also answered towards the closing of the novel — John Galt is a man disgusted that non-productive members of society use laws and guilt to leech from the value created by productive members of society, and furthermore even exalt the qualities of the leeches over the workers and inventors. He made a pledge that he would never live his life for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for him, and founded an enclave, separate from the rest of the country, where he and other productive members of society have fled."
I thought it was interesting. Describes Ben more than the captain, although Ben certainly does not come off as heroic as John Galt does in the novel.
MK46 | Mar 14, 2008 5:02:56 AM | #I think Jin is definitely dead, and I'd be willing to guess that Claire is too. While I understand all of the reasoning people have put forth as to how he could be alive, I've believe at some point, the stakes need to be raised. We've been led to believe in all of the flash forwards that the freighter folks/Team Abaddon do something terrible before they get off the island. Otherwise, why would Sayid be working for be in The Economist? I think that before the Oceanic six gets off the island, one or more main characters is going to pay the price.
Mike | Mar 14, 2008 5:13:10 AM | #So, what, ARob, Ryan can point out his verified theories and I can't?
Jeff | Mar 14, 2008 5:17:34 AM | #I actually enjoyed the twist about Jin. I don't think every second of the show can be used to further the mythology otherwise we would be overloaded. I see this switcheroo as Darlton training us to examine each scene in a flashback/flashforward as being independent of the others. We can no longer make any assumptions as to each episode either being all flashbacks or all flashforwards. I think that is pretty exciting.
Now that we know all of the Oceanic 6 (promo's indicated we would find out the last tonight, which was only Sun, we have to place Aaron back in as an O6), I wonder if we are going to get a flashforward on the Island? If so, who can it be about?
Blue Sean | Mar 14, 2008 5:45:23 AM | #I wish I knew several languages - was Jim speaking Chinese or Korean everywhere during this episode?
Favorite moment: Sun: "It's a simple question." and getting no answer. Sums this show up pretty well. It's telling that she's one of the few characters who, instead of skulking around their tents and tarp-tubs whispering about the Copterettes, actually goes right on up to one and kindly asks him what the deal is. Now if they all acted like that? Well there'd probably be no show.
Nonnie Muss | Mar 14, 2008 5:50:15 AM | #That obviously should have been "Jin" instead of "Jim". Duh.
Nonnie Muss | Mar 14, 2008 5:50:53 AM | #Did anyone else notice the name of the freighter....right after Jin catches the karma fish they flash to a long shot of the freighter....it is named Karma
mark3557 | Mar 14, 2008 6:12:45 AM | #Did anyone else notice the name of the freighter....right after Jin catches the karma fish they flash to a long shot of the freighter....it is named Karma
mark3557 | Mar 14, 2008 6:12:56 AM | #Actually, it's Kahana.
Jeff | Mar 14, 2008 6:16:41 AM | #Loved the episode but since I do know about the Chinese Zodiac I quickly thought up how things were going to go but I admit I did think for a half a minute that the writers messed up but that soon washed away.
I see many twists and turns ahead of time but that's mostly because I'm a huge fan of the show and analyse everything and always going 'what if?' This one though was easier but still great!
john | Mar 14, 2008 6:17:46 AM | #I am not convinced Jin is dead. His real body could not be there- how would they have got his body back and explained why is was at least 3 months "fresher" than it was supposed to be? It is pretty common for there to be a tombstone and no body- it is what you do when there is nothing to bury, That Sun would go to the graveyard to speak to him would not really be that strange- she must know there is no way for him to come back, so essentially he is dead. She seemed fairly certain that he was alive when she was giving birth and delirious from the drugs. I don't think that was something the writers threw in to make his "death" more shocking or add an extra element of sadness to the occasion. The scenario where he gave up his seat and was one of those left behind just makes more sense.
Or maybe I am in total Jin denial- he is one of the few characters with pure intentions. Killing him is like killing a kitten.
Beth | Mar 14, 2008 6:18:46 AM | #Pretty sure he's dead, Beth :/
As soon as Jin said "nothing will keep me apart from you" (or something to that effect), I knew he was a goner.
Jeff | Mar 14, 2008 6:27:15 AM | #Solid episode by every measure. The first give-away that Jin was in a flashback was his ancient cell-phone. Remember in the finale of last season Jack had a cool new cell phone. If the show goes out of its way to showcase technology as an easter egg than you best believe that Jin's cell phone was an early tell. Also, the panda obsession made no sense if it was his baby being born, since they are not from China.
I too saw Michael in the hood when Regina offed herself. She's suffering from ocean madness (which is not an excuse for Ocean rudeness) and "cabin fever" and splash, done. What is up with that? Is Gault telling the truth? Perhaps the note was directed to viewers and not Sayid and Desmond. Maybe we're not supposed to trust Gault's story.
The on island stuff was vintage Lost. all the emotions, hooks, character-interactions and moments that defined the first season. Great stuff.
Finally, Sun's flashforward was painful and depressing, like all future Oceanic 6ers. I'm not sure what Hurley meant when he said "good" but perhaps it means that he doesn't like the others for their behaviour/constant lies. Jin's death implies that he died in the crash and may or may not be alive back on the island with Juliet, Sawyer and maybe Claire et al. We don't know yet.
Lastly, this episode continued the trend of having multiple characters featured in the flash-forward. Jack's had Jack & Kate. Hurley's had him and Jack. Kate had her, Jack and Aaron. Sayid has him and Ben. And finally Sun and Hurley. Even the flashbacks have featured multiple characters.
LostFan | Mar 14, 2008 6:28:40 AM | #Yeah, that was too bad about Regina. I was so looking forward to her character and she was gone in a flash.
Jeff | Mar 14, 2008 6:32:23 AM | #I think that Desmond is the final member of the "Oceanic 6." His whold reconnection with Penelope has to come to fruition.
Also, I believe that Jin is dead, and the tombstone on his grave was probably put there by his family (who presumabley though he HAD died on the fake plane crash) and Sun had no way to change it.
At any rate, the show was EXCELLENT, as all of them are; and this season is PHENOMENAL!!!!!
Ryan Williams | Mar 14, 2008 6:35:08 AM | #How come the people on the freighter don't recognize Michael, when they have all the information and know all the names of the people on the plane? I'm assuming at some point they have seen pictures as well because they know who people are on sight?
Mark | Mar 14, 2008 6:40:17 AM | #But Desmond was never on flight 815, so how can he be an Oceanic 6 member?
The whole point of Desmond, in my opinion, is that he's the dark horse, the guy flying under the radar of the puppetmasters, whose story and actions are going to lead to the salvation of the survivors.
Jeff | Mar 14, 2008 6:40:49 AM | #interesting stuff here, as always.
i was right there with MK46 on "who is John Galt?" totally.
anybody else catch the name of the freighter? i don't have HD, so i couldn't make it out but i swear it's called Karma.
also, there was a gerat throw-away line from the Doctor. when he's showing Sayid and Des to their new quarters he says "you'll like this cabin. it's in the quiet part of the ship." sayid responds "but the ship isn't moving." and Doc says "if you say so."
whaaaaaa?
mri | Mar 14, 2008 6:41:05 AM | #mri, it's the Kahana.
Jeff | Mar 14, 2008 6:44:06 AM | #oh, and what did naomi's bracelet say again? N. I'll always be with you, R.G. would this possibly make Naomi Regina's constant and vice versa. so when Naomi died, Regina went off her rocker.
mri | Mar 14, 2008 6:49:20 AM | #jeff-
thanks, that got posted while i was reading and typing
mri | Mar 14, 2008 6:50:02 AM | #no problemo
Jeff | Mar 14, 2008 6:53:17 AM | #Naomi's body was aboard the copter when it left the island. Since Frank/Sayid/Desmond landed on the freighter there's been NOT ONE WORD about it.
In three full episodes, there's no indication her body was removed from the 'copter. Frank didn't say anything about ferrying her body, or how she died. No one is shouting, "They killed Naomi! The bastards!"
It is as if she has disappeared, and no one remembers her life or death. On another show, I'd call that evidence of sloppy writing. Here, I call it damned suspicious.
j.norris | Mar 14, 2008 7:02:15 AM | #I'm surprised that not more praise has been given to the actors and director for how the touching scenes of Jin and Sun making up and of Sun's heart wretching tears at the end. Well done!!! I loved the soft "lost" credit at the end that was very appropiate.
The World | Mar 14, 2008 7:05:22 AM | #Good observation! I totally forgot about Naomi's body.
Jeff | Mar 14, 2008 7:06:38 AM | #I loved Yunjin Kim's acting during the birthing scene. She was right into it and really filled the scene with emotion.
Jeff | Mar 14, 2008 7:09:38 AM | #Yup, she really nailed it, as did DDK and Sam Anderson (Bernard). While semi-cheesy, I really enjoyed the Wolfram and Hart fishing trip.
Ryan | Mar 14, 2008 7:13:32 AM | #ryan-
SNORT!!!!!!
mri | Mar 14, 2008 7:16:41 AM | #Absolutey NO WAY is Jin really dead. NOPE. For one thing, why in the world would a show with such a loyal fanbase as Lost do the dumbest thing in the world and kill off every beloved character except for 6 of them? PLUS, all of next season is about how the 6 need to get back to island, right? They all need a reason to go back. If Jin got off the island and died later, what would be the point of even having Sun in the show at that point. Nope, not dead. The O6 have to get back to the island to save the others who are left there.
Kerri | Mar 14, 2008 7:21:00 AM | #I don't think the concept that it's been a very busy 12 weeks for those not on the island should be given too much weight. It's getting more and more established that time moves much slower on the island than off. So while it's only three months "ON" the island, it could have been much longer off the island.
M | Mar 14, 2008 7:23:05 AM | #Kerri, you said:
"For one thing, why in the world would a show with such a loyal fanbase as Lost do the dumbest thing in the world and kill off every beloved character except for 6 of them?"
The producers have said since the very beginning that there would be significant deaths in the series because they needed to show there were real stakes to the story. With that in mind, it's inevitible that some fan favorites will die. I don't think we've seen the last major character to die, either.
Jeff | Mar 14, 2008 7:33:25 AM | #Yes, they're going back to save the people left behind, but not all of them will be alive.
Jeff | Mar 14, 2008 7:34:42 AM | #Yes, I agree that since it is in fact, LOST, and that we have 2 seasons left that maybe one or two more characters may die. But all?? Not likely.
Kerri | Mar 14, 2008 7:34:49 AM | #I never said they'd all die. I think it's a given that while the O6 are back in the outside world, there will be several major and non major characters still on the island.
Jeff | Mar 14, 2008 7:39:50 AM | #lol, I guess "non major" would be minor, wouldn't it?
Jefff | Mar 14, 2008 7:44:26 AM | #Actually, Jeff, the plan is to kill everyone at the end of Season 5, which will lead directly into a Season 6 in which Smokey wanders around bored out of his mind. It's gonna be freakin' sweet.
Ryan | Mar 14, 2008 7:48:33 AM | #Did Regina die in a flash or a splash.
To Jeff | Mar 14, 2008 7:48:36 AM | #Ah, my mistake ;)
hmmm... flash or splash? no need to decide, she did both! :)
Jeff | Mar 14, 2008 7:49:57 AM | #Yeah, I'm just trying to emphasize that there are obviously still people alive on the island and that's why the O6 have to get back. Jin would have to be Sun's reason....
Of course I may just be in complete denial because Jin is my favorite character. All of my protests could very well be in vain.
Kerri | Mar 14, 2008 7:55:23 AM | #Maybe the Black Rock Journal was written by someone who got Nostradamus powers from the island and Widmore used this knowledge to send the freighter early.
If Walt is the last Oceanic 6 would his name be in the credits?
Too many comment to read them all, so I don't know if it's been mentioned.
I thought that the banging of pipes was explained when the Captain said he's been having the engine worked on. Was I wrong?
Denise | Mar 14, 2008 8:02:27 AM | #To Denise: That seems like a pretty irrelevant thing to bring up for no reason. I think there's more to it than that. Why else would they make a big deal of it?
Kerri | Mar 14, 2008 8:09:51 AM | #Good episode. Not in my top ten, but still good.
I don't think Jin is dead. I believe he is still on the Island, fishing with Bernard.
After seeing Michael's note DO NOT TRUST THE CAPTAIN, I'm thinking the captain may be Ben's man on the boat. Michael knows he must get back to the Island (perhaps Walt was re-captured by Ben's people) and takes an alias to get back. He sabotages the freighter so that he can find a way back on the Island before it leaves. He sabotages communications so that the captain can not communicate with Ben. Just me theory on that.
Not sure what to think of Regina. I believe it may be the sickness, but may also be linked to Naomi's death. Perhaps in Michael's freighter flash-back (which I'm assuming we'll get one) we'll find out what happened to her, and witness first-hand what happened to Minkowski.
What I'm most curious about, is where did Frank go with the chopper? Keamy says he was on an errand for the captain to the Island. We know it wasn't the 815 side. Is he maybe delivering a messsage to the Others at the temple? Or Soemthing else?
Shaggysteve | Mar 14, 2008 8:17:15 AM | #How dark am I? Everyone else thought Hurley and Sun were gonna make out, and I thought he was going to kill her and steal the baby.
Hm.
i like the "explaination" of regina. I thought sun's face when juliet told jin about the affair was priceless. that was some great acting.
Dory | Mar 14, 2008 8:28:25 AM | #I don't think Jin is dead. The tombstone date reflects the world's general belief that everyone but the Oceanic 6 died in the crash (and I like the suggestion above that it wasn't Sun that put it up but their family before she got back.) I think Jin is still on the island, and that they either got separated accidentally or he made Sun leave him to save herself and the baby. As to the flashback/ flashforward, I definitely felt like something was off and Jin was not going to Sun, but I didn't see the flashback coming!
In terms of the Oceanic 6, someone likely commented on this after the Kate episode, but remember way back in season 1 when Claire visited the psychic and he told her that dire consequences would follow if anyone but her raised her baby? uh oh.
Allie | Mar 14, 2008 8:32:38 AM | #I missed a few minutes of the show and I'm wondering, do we know for sure that Jin's scenes were flashbacks? Was that spelled out for us? Because I was thinking it was a flashforward and Sun thinks he's dead but he's not. Possibly she and her father have severed all ties and he doesn't tell Jin that she is alive and she thinks he died somehow (was left on the island but managed to get off without her knowing or something?)I'm not completely convinced yet.
Robyn | Mar 14, 2008 8:38:10 AM | #Something occured to me while reading these posts. (along with Ryan's orginal article) People seem to believe that time moves more slowly on the island than off. We still don't know the exact ammount of time that seems to have passed from the outside world's perspective. The father of Sun's baby was in question until Julliet detemined that Jin was indeed the father by calcualting the date od conception. Jin's gravestone shows his date of death as being when the plane crashed. Depending on how long they were perceived to be on the island, how can they then explain Jin being the father. If the date of conception was perceived by the outside world to be while she was on the island, whom would they say that the father was. Jin was supposedly dead. Maybe part of the Oceanic 6's coverup story has Hurley posing as the father of Sun's baby.
Joseph | Mar 14, 2008 8:39:51 AM | #The R.G. on Naomi's bracelet was also on the German girl's bracelet, wasn't it? That makes me think that it's not Regina. Although the idea of Naomi being her constant and now gone is kind of intriguing.
Also, someone pointed out to me today that they knew the Jin scenes were flashbacks, because the show puts the WHOOSH sound before the flashbacks, but not before the flash forwards. Can anyone confirm that? Anybody else notice this?
To Joseph: I think that is an interesting theory, but I think the writers would be unwise to make that the case since all of last night's ep was about Sun and Jin's redemptive processes.
Kerri | Mar 14, 2008 8:47:30 AM | #I was a big "it's way later off the Island than on it" for a while. "The Constant" pretty much put a squash on that, since it was the same day off the Island (Christmas Eve 2004) as the Lostaways would have considered it to be on the Island. I found that initially disappointing, for reasons I covered on the Lost blog, but that seems to be the case.
But...
There's something definitely wonky about time when you move to and from the island. Faraday's rocket, Lapidus' helicopter, etc. You end up not only in a different "where" but a different "when" as well.
We've seen what happens when you leave via 305. What I'm curious to see is where/when Michael ended up after leaving via 325. (Or, coversely, when any of the Oceanic 6 would end up should they successfully find the Island again. Say, with a black and white rock in tow.)
As for the timeline post-crash, pre-Oceanic 6 return, it's all up in the air at this point. We know as of Christmas 2004 that the wreck has been discovered, and very people suspect it to be a fake. What we don't know is when the wreck was discovered in relation to the crash and when Faraday et al were recruited for this mission.
But given the 1-1 ratio of days passed on island/days passed in the real world (if the calendar on the ship is to be believed, which is an if but a small one), then Jin giving birth a few months after returning wouldn't really throw anyone off.
Ryan | Mar 14, 2008 8:53:27 AM | #Pretty amazing episode, I think it may be my favorite of this season so far. I guess it may have been frustrating during the episode, but by the end I found it very satisfying. Don't we all want this show to mess with our heads? I agree the Bernard scene was great.
The Michael reveal is probably the biggest non-surprise this show has ever done. ABC looks pretty silly promoting it as "someone you never expected to see again".
The Regina (and Minkowski) thing seems pretty bizarre. Why cast a fairly name actress (and announce it months in advance) for a couple tiny scenes? I almost wonder if she'll turn out not to be dead, but more logical is that she'll turn out to be a bigger player in flashbacks.
I think Hurley's line is simply because the O6's lives are all pretty screwed up and they're not getting along at all.
I'm surprised you don't go more into the question of whether Jin is dead? I think it's pretty obvious that he's alive on the island and they're just sticking to the cover story. And I think while it's not officially confirmed, it's pretty obvious now that Aaron is O6 after all. They had to be vague before so the tease in this episode would work, I'm sure they'll confirm it in the next podcast or something similar.
If it makes you feel any better, the show will only be off the air for four weeks, not five.
Two questions:
Is next week's episode only one hour; wasn't the half season finale going to be two hours, with a "cliffhanger?"
Was Hurley's visit to Sun before or after his return to craziness and return to psych ward? I guess I could do the math since Juliette tells is how many weeks Sun is along in her pregnancy, but I don't remember what she said right now. But I'm sure one of you does. Completing the time to delivery will tell us how far in the future her flash forward is; but not really answer the Hurley timeline question.
And one theory:
How Ben could become rich. IF he can time travel, even if only by a few hours, he could perform the wealth building scheme seen in the film "Primer," where the stock market winners at market close would be bought (via time travel) the preceeding morning. I suppose he'd also be able to make a killing in Vegas.
Note: I think faking the 815 crash would be even more complicated than we are talking about: all the luggage and contents would have to be faked (passports, laminated water-proof ID's, etc). And faking the black box would not be easy [and why would the Captain Gault have it, by the way; wouldn't the NTSB have it?]. Nor would engine serial numbers and other verifiable details. It almost makes more "sense" if there were two realities: one in which the plane crashes, killing all on board; and one where it breaks up over the island and some survive.
In the real world (where the Oceanic 6 now live) the rescue of the 6 had to be fairly close to the downed plane site to be believable. So I guess we'll see them moved off the island to another location eventually, so they can be "rescued" from there.
William Robinson | Mar 14, 2008 9:14:00 AM | #I believe that Michael is the last of the Oceanic Six. I still believe that Michael is the person in the coffin during the season finale last year. How could one of the Oceanic Six die and NOT create a media circus? It is possible that the time frame of Jack's flash forward is 3-7 years into the future. The craze died out, and the general public no longer considers them to be celebrities.
I say this for three reasons. First, in that episode, no one used the term 'Oceanic Six.' If the rescue had taken place a short time earlier, the term would have been used more openly. Secondly, In the season opener, Jack was adamant about never returning to the island. In his flash forward, he was absolutely convinced that they had to go back. That makes me inclined to believe that a considerable amount of time passed between his visit with Hurley and his visit with Kate at the airport. Thirdly, Kate said to Jack at the airport that 'he' would be wondering where I am. IF she was referring to Aaron, he would have to be older. No 2 year old is going to stay up until late at night wondering where his mom is; he will be sleeping. However, a child that is 7 or 8 might do that.
Some may say, "How can Michael go without Walt? Walt spent most of his life without his father. It is possible that he ends up on the island and lives with Uncle Locke. That is just a guess.
Pete | Mar 14, 2008 9:25:02 AM | #This is why I'm a strong believer in the alternate reality theory. There is too much involved with the wreckage found (bodies, black box, an airplane with all the markings of 815) for it to just be staged. As someone alluded to earlier, perhaps them being in some sort of gateway between vortices is why some are getting sick. Either way, there is something more in play here. There are too many variables.
Shaggysteve | Mar 14, 2008 9:31:36 AM | #I wonder if there's anything special about a baby conceived on the island. There's got to be some reason none of the others were ever born alive.
Also, anytime there's a scene with Jin and Bernard, I cannot get Wolfram and Hart out of my mind :)
Michelle | Mar 14, 2008 9:34:08 AM | #No one ever uttered the word "dead" when referring to Jin in Sun's FF. Sun said twice that she missed him but never made any reference to not ever being able to see him again. I believe what some others have posted, that Jin is still alive on the island and the grave marker is just for show and something concrete (no pun intended)for Sun to connect to Jin. I never thought anything was going on with Hurley and Sun, I just thought Hurley was happy to see a happy familiar face and was thrilled for Sun to have successfully delivered her baby.
Ben's man on the frieghter is definately Michae. This is confirmed in the preview with Locke telling his camp and Sawyer getting peeved about it. I have suspected all season so far that Walt is being held until Michael fulfills his mission for Ben.
I, too wonder where Ben got a plane to put all the mysterious dead bodies in. How friggin creepy!!!! Are they Dharma folks? Who knows. I'm thinking no, since, as someone else said, the purge happened long before the plane crash and the bodies would not have decomposed at the needed rate to be believable as place crash victims.
Obviously Ben is not working alone. No one person could pull off all that he has without outside contacts and a HELL of a lot of money, which means very rich and important contacts. If not Widmore, than who?
Desmond must be going nuts knowing that it's Widmore's boat. I can't wait to see how that story line plays out. Desmond is an extremely important character.
Kerri,
You saved me a some typing! I agree 100%! The O6 are in agony because they have been forced to hide the fact that they left everyone behind. That HAD to be part of the deal to get them off. That explains why Jack tells Kate the have to go back, why Hurley wants to be locked up again, why Sun is missing Jin (and why his date of death is the day of the crash on the tombstone), and why Kate doesn't want to go back (She's too attached to Aaron, who she'd have to give back to Claire, because Claire is still on the island).
Jeff | Mar 14, 2008 9:37:46 AM | #We know Jin's were flashbacks because he says he has only been married two months, plus some other hints.
There is no connection between the bracelets, the writers have confirmed this. If you look at them, they aren't even the same one, and only one was shown to have the writing.
Episode 8 is next week (it was going to be after the break but they changed their minds) and it was never planned to be a "middle finale" or two hours. The original plan for the season was no break in episodes, meaning the only finale would be the finale.
I think the reason they get away with the wreckage is that the plane is so deep that they can't bring anything up but the black box (which they faked somehow). Nothing else is recovered, so they don't have to go into detail in the hoax.
milo | Mar 14, 2008 9:39:50 AM | #What is interesting that in the flashforward of Kate we see that people believe Aaron is her son; assuming aaron is actually Claire's aaron; how is Sun giving birth off-island. That would mean they get rescued sometime before 7 months are up. So how does Kate make people believe that Aaron is hers?
Is it possible that Aaron is not Claire's, but is actually Kate's and Sawyers and for some odd reason Kate named him Aaron?
jbw | Mar 14, 2008 9:43:14 AM | #jbw--We know now that the Oceanic 6 get off the Island within the next 3 weeks. Otherwise, we'd have a dead Sun on our hands.
While it's not clear if people believe Aaron to be hers or not, that is THE Aaron. The other possibility is too creeptastic, as I outlined a few weeks ago.
Ryan | Mar 14, 2008 9:52:24 AM | #I'm pretty convinced Jin is really dead. Sun was way too emotional for him to just be waiting on the island. And in response to the poster who believed he was included in the Oceanic Six but died later--if that were true, the date on his tombstone would not be the date of the crash. That said, Jin's physical body appears to have made it off the island--I don't think Hurley would have said "Let's go visit him" if his body was not physically in the grave--so it seems that Jin is one of the other two people in Jack's "eight people survived" lie.
I was hoping Aaron did not count as one of the Oceanic Six, but it's hard to deny that he does now, what with the promos flat-out telling us that we would know all Oceanic Six members after tonight.
And yes, that was a totally weird moment of chemistry between Sun and Hurley! Ew.
Shannon | Mar 14, 2008 9:52:35 AM | #How does Sun explain her pregnancy when Jin died on 9.22.04? Juliet was able to determine the child was conceived after that date, thus wouldn't her doctor be able to figure that out? And before you say that Sun claims he died a month later, I don't believe for 1 second his grave marker would say 9/22. It's just another component of the main theme this year: "time".
Pepsi lover | Mar 14, 2008 9:57:47 AM | #Shannon, how would they have buried his body? Assuming he died on the island after this episode, that would mean that they brought back a body that had been dead for a couple weeks but said that he had been dead for over three months. I don't think it's possible his body is in there.
The "eight people survived" thing doesn't fit either since that would mean his date of death was later than the crash date.
If Sun thinks she will never see Jin again, she would be pretty darn emotional about it. She and Hurley are just going there to remember him - plenty of graves have no body yet people still talk about "going to see him".
milo | Mar 14, 2008 9:59:39 AM | #"I don't think the concept that it's been a very busy 12 weeks for those not on the island should be given too much weight. It's getting more and more established that time moves much slower on the island than off. So while it's only three months "ON" the island, it could have been much longer off the island."
I feel the need to bring light to an aspect of time on the show that a lot of people are misconceiving. First of all, IF (which I don't believe it is) island time is different than real world time, then island time moved FASTER than real world time, NOT SLOWER. Think about the copter's trip back to the freighter: took a day on island, took 20 minutes in the real world. I understand why this might make people think island time is moving slower, because Jack and co. have to wait so long to hear from Sayid, but if you think about it, 1 island day = 20 real world minutes implies island time moved much faster. To extrapolate, this would imply that the 3 months of time on island, has only been about (90 days)x(20 min/day) = 1800 minutes = 30 hours.
Which leads me to my next point: island time moves at the same speed as real world time. First of all there's no way only 30 hours of real world time have passed since the crash. Secondly, I believe the calendar on the freighter was shown to imply that the current day on and off island are the same.
You might be wondering, "If time works the same on and off island, why the descrepency in the travel time of the copter?" This was explained when Sayid noticed that they took off and dusk and landed during mid-day. The actual trip took 20 minutes, but the amount of time that passed is roughly a day, which catches off-island time up to where on-island time is.
So basically what's happening is a time shift when moving to and from island. But once on or off island, time moves at the same speed as anywhere else.
yanksrule | Mar 14, 2008 10:01:05 AM | #milo, the actress who played Regina isn't a name actress as far as I can tell: She's mostly a stuntwoman. Fisher Stevens is far better known, and I can't help but think he'll be back.
I was creeped out by Hurley's "good" comment. I bet it has to do with his choosing Locke's team -- pretty sure this flash-forward could be before he goes into the nuthouse and makes nice with Jack.
As to the comment way above about italics, unfortunately, HTML is disabled for comments.
Andy | Mar 14, 2008 10:04:15 AM | #Apparently, writing a long post at 1:30 in the morning means that people just skip over it when dawn rolls around, lol. I have my own theories about where the show's headed, in terms of time travel, parallel universes, alternate timelines, etc., but I think I'll keep them to myself from now on. Writing a novella on a site like this tends to cause carpal tunnel syndrome, and it's a waste of time and energy if nobody is reading it anyway. Suffice it to say that I think Ben is behind the whole thing; that he is trying to use Widmore technology of some kind to send his consciousness back in time to right whatever wrong screwed up his life (and that the others on The Island have been able to do the same, even if we haven't seen it yet); and that Widmore is trying to keep this from happening, because the loss of the technology would mean potential profit that he wouldn't be getting. Whatever it is, I think I'm done writing long missives for now. It's not worth the effort, especially when others say the same things here and elsewhere anyway. So enjoy, folks; Lost is one of the best shows ever made, and the number of responses herein prove that admirably. I'll continue to enjoy reading everyone else's ideas, but as for me, I now sign off. Have fun!
Dark Disciple | Mar 14, 2008 10:11:04 AM | #While Zoe Bell isn't a big name, she's fairly well known.
If her part really is that small, it seems unlikely they would have announced her participation months ago - there was a pretty big deal made that she was coming to the show.
milo | Mar 14, 2008 10:20:35 AM | #Let me run this timeline by you:
The sequence of flash forward events.
Hurley visits Sun - happens first based primarily on her delivering her baby approximately 8-9 months after the cash.
Jack visits Hurley - Hurley off the deep end, but Jack not yet.
Kate's trial and meetings with Jack - Jack still "sane" but based on Aaron's age, happens at least two years after rescue.
Jack meets Kate at Airport - Jack now seeking to return to island and obviously troubled.
No particular insight to add, just proposing this as a logical sequence.
William Robinson | Mar 14, 2008 10:22:53 AM | #Okay, this is getting confusing. There are 2 Jeff's in today's comment section. One of us has gotta modify their name.
Jeff | Mar 14, 2008 10:35:05 AM | #milo: Not sure a press release qualifies as a big deal, but they did announce it, yes.
As many have stated here, we'll probably see Regina, Minkowski, heck, probably Naomi next week, and given all the backstory they need to fill in off-Island, there's no reason to think even that will be the last we'll see of them. So their casting will yield more screen time at some point soonish, I'll wager.
Ryan | Mar 14, 2008 10:37:57 AM | #Dark Disciple-
just because people don't respond to your theory doesn't mean people aren't reading it. Everyone has their own theories they want to get out there and one being interesting doesn't necessarily warrant a response. I'm sure many people read your post.
As for me, I didn't read it because Damon and Carlton said on the podcast that they feel that introducing the idea of parallel universes in the show would be a cheap fix, and all of the flash forwards we have seen so far would be rendered meaningless. If parallel universes were introduced, the show could show literally anything in a flash forward and it would have no merit to the story because it would exist in some other universe than the one that will be layed out in coming seasons.
yanksrule | Mar 14, 2008 10:44:26 AM | #yanksrule- Regarding your proposition that time moves faster on the Island than in the "real world", what about Faraday's rocket? It took 30 seconds from the "real world" freighter but took 31 minutes and 20 seconds to get to the Island. Wouldn't this indicate slower Island time?
Maybe there isn't really a time difference at all, just leaving the Island on different headings takes you to different time-periods. The rocket came in at heading 345 (or whatever) so it was slower. Michael left at 325 so he went to the past. 305 is the correct heading for there to be no time-lapse. I wonder what would happen if someone leaves at heading 108 that takes them to the past and then re-enters the Island at heading 305 which has no time-lapse? Could this result in one of our Losties being Adam and Eve?
My brain is asplode!!!
Jeff- I had the same problem, hence "Blue Sean" and "Other Sean". :)
Blue Sean | Mar 14, 2008 11:00:43 AM | #Thank you, yanksrule, for your post about time moving FASTER on the island. I've been considering that option, too, given the facts you mention.
As to how Benjamin Freakin' Linus could have staged the crash, it's quite simple ... he got the corpses and plane from the Island. We know that the Island can make things/people appear (e.g. Locke's father ... and I'm saying that red Widmore folder from last week, which was NOT in the safe when Locke opened up). Can't tell you HOW the Island makes them appear, but I think that's the only way something like the faked crash can be done quickly and without arousing suspicion.
One more thing: There were actually 3 dates on the tombstone: the crash date, a date from 1980 and a date from 1974. Assuming Jin's birth year is 1974, then Sun's would be 1980, meaning that the tombstone was put up by their families because they thought the couple had died in the crash.
Lisa S. | Mar 14, 2008 11:08:24 AM | #You guys are sick! It never crossed my mind that Hurley and Sun were gonna make out.
And sometimes saying "good" is just saying "good"
sin_laden (Juliet is a b****) | Mar 14, 2008 11:08:59 AM | #The folder WAS in the safe, but the pages were turned to the camera. So if you look closely, you will see that the tape is sitting on the file (although the way Ben takes it is weird).
The island really has powers if Jin gave birth.
To Ryan | Mar 14, 2008 11:21:05 AM | #Lisa, if the families thought both had died, wouldn't there be four dates on it? Meaning that Sun would have the same death date? Since she only has a birth date listed, it seems like it was probably put up after she came back from the island (and maybe she did it herself).
milo | Mar 14, 2008 11:23:28 AM | #I just want to say that I love this section. It's such a relief to have a show that has so many people debating about what is happening and having an intelligent conversation, not who is going to get cut from the next episode of *insert any reality show here*.
Denise | Mar 14, 2008 11:25:34 AM | #If they share the same death date, then why put it twice?
And if the 1980 date isn't Sun's, what is it?
Lisa S. | Mar 14, 2008 11:29:42 AM | #Nobody picked up this thread after J.Norris and ShaggySteve made comments about Frank, but I figure that Frank's mysterious errand was to dump Naomi's body without too much attention...
Stan | Mar 14, 2008 11:45:12 AM | #I don't hang out in cemetaries studying tombstones, but aren't married couples often interred next to each other? Maybe Sun has the "plot" next to Jin's and they just carved her birthdate (and presumably name, but I can barely read/write English so I'm clueless on that one) on the stone and it is blank for her future deathdate. (Was that your point, milo?)
A little creepy to be so forward thinking, but ... possible perhaps? I dunno. Just a thought.
Denise - I'm with you. Refreshing to hang out here and "talk"/think/laugh. (Don't go, Dark Disciple! I always get a chuckle from your posts. I just don't want to clutter the blog with posts that don't add something to the thread/conversation. Doesn't mean we aren't interested in hearing all the thoughts, however, including yours.)
I also ponder where Papa Paik was in Sun's life post-Island. He was so 'involved' in it before the crash. Okay, I can see not having him in the birth room, but no mention of him (or his representative) waiting in the hall, calling, etc. ... just an obvious absence of reference.
djc | Mar 14, 2008 11:47:49 AM | #I am hedging bets on Juliet is the 6th person of the Oceanic 6. Has it pretty much been confirmed? If you read between the lines and read TV Guide - then you can decipher she is (possibly the 6th). But, what is others do make it off the Island, but only these 6 are the "Famous" Oceanic 6??
THis is the BEST show on TV right now. Sun and Jin are my favorite on-screen couple now! They have amazing chemistry!
The 1980 date is Sun's birthdate.
Even if two people die on the same day, the two people are listed on opposite sides, each with a set of dates. If there was only one death date, it would look like one was still alive.
It's a pretty common thing, sometimes they go ahead and list the living person, sometimes they leave the other side blank.
Here's an example in english:
http://www.doles.org/Newsletters/grafx-10/delk-albert-della.jpg
Jason: Juliette wasn't on the Oceanic flight. So she can't be one of the six.
Since we don't know for certain if Jun is dead, we also can't be certain when he did/didn't die. He may have died after returning to Korea. So he could be dead and a survivor of the flight.
William Robinson | Mar 14, 2008 12:03:26 PM | #While we don't know if Jin is dead, he couldn't have died after returning to Korea, or the tombstone wouldn't have listed the date of the crash.
milo | Mar 14, 2008 12:15:38 PM | #I'm pretty convinced Jin is really dead. Sun was way too emotional for him to just be waiting on the island. And in response to the poster who believed he was included in the Oceanic Six but died later--if that were true, the date on his tombstone would not be the date of the crash. That said, Jin's physical body appears to have made it off the island--I don't think Hurley would have said "Let's go visit him" if his body was not physically in the grave--so it seems that Jin is one of the other two people in Jack's "eight people survived" lie.
I was hoping Aaron did not count as one of the Oceanic Six, but it's hard to deny that he does now, what with the promos flat-out telling us that we would know all Oceanic Six members after tonight.
And yes, that was a totally weird moment of chemistry between Sun and Hurley! Ew.
I wonder if the Oceanic 6 list is complete and one member is dead. Since we know Jack goes to a funeral and the end of Season 3 and the beginning of the forward flashes. The only guesses left are who would die and nobody would go to their funeral. In my mind, that can only be one person, my man Sawyer.
Michael | Mar 14, 2008 12:18:41 PM | #I agree with milo and Chris completely on Jin. He is not dead. The camera focuses 3 times in the episode on Sun and her wedding/engagement rings... twice with her delibertly putting them on and once when she was upset the hospital was taking them from her. To me, it seems rather obvious that Jin is alive and on the island.. Sun still considers herself married to him... and would be even the more emotional at his "grave" knowing he was alive on island but not with her...
Courtney | Mar 14, 2008 12:25:58 PM | #Jin can't be one of the "two people survived" people in the fake story since that would give him a later date of death (unless they said he died later that day, which seems unlikely). Since his date of "death" is the date of the crash, the likely story is that he died in the crash.
Hypothetically, if Jin dies before the rescue and they take his body with, how could they pass off a body dead less than a couple weeks for a body dead more than three months?
Especially on a tropical island, there's going to be a huge difference in the amount of decomposition.
Not to mention, if they try to pass off Jin's body as killed during the crash, how do they explain how they got his dead body out from the plane, and why out of 300 they pulled out one?
milo | Mar 14, 2008 12:28:07 PM | #Courtney- See, I interpreted that as meaning Sun didn't want to let go. I know many people who still wear their wedding ring on their left ring finger even when they are widows/widowers. Sometimes they leave it on until they are done grieving or until they start dating again. Sometimes it never comes off. Either way, it is perfectly likely that Sun is still wearing her ring for this reason.
Blue Sean | Mar 14, 2008 12:29:08 PM | #I see your point Blue Sean.. but I think the rings along with the other supporting evidence including the date of death and other facts others for not dead have stated still add up to not dead but on island... I guess we will have to wait to find out ...
Courtney | Mar 14, 2008 12:50:01 PM | #i think jin is dead. the hint was the foreshadowing in the dinner scene where he said he would do anything to protect sun and the baby. i expect jin/sawyer to both go out in blazes of glory to protect sun/kate.
tony | Mar 14, 2008 12:50:47 PM | #im still unconvinced that aaron is part of oceanic 6. there was no distinct claim that he is one. if he is, im sure this is not a writer's mistake and will sure mean something in the future.
james | Mar 14, 2008 12:51:47 PM | #While there's no official confirmation of Aaron, there's no question that at this point he's the only other character we know got off the island. Well, there is Ben too, but since we know Ben has sneaky ways of getting around under false identities, Aaron seems the much more likely candidate.
It's possible that the sixth is someone we haven't seen off the island yet, but the promos and official podcasts have said we'd know all six by the end of this episode. While it's possible those claims were lies, I think we pretty much know now.
milo | Mar 14, 2008 12:58:49 PM | #I have no reason to believe the ABC promo monkeys. These are the same people who tell us to go to Flight815.com to find out about the Christiane I. And we all know how accurate that site is.
I think the sixth member is still open and I'll only feel that the issue is resolved when we all of see them actually leave.
Moonbeam | Mar 14, 2008 1:06:44 PM | #Dark Disciple: DONT'T GO!!!! We need your commentary as much as we need everyone else's! If you stay I promise you I will respond to your posts... I will be your Constant! LOL!
But I don't know yall I think Michael is more of Ben's pawn that he is his spy. I think there is someone else on that boat who is pulling the strings.
Also I think the folder in the safe was of a continuity goof than a hidden clue.
Mark O. Estes | Mar 14, 2008 1:09:17 PM | #that said, it wouldn't surprise me if maybe jin dies on the return trip. maybe he finds something about about paik industries and threatens to expose daddy dearest.
tony | Mar 14, 2008 1:11:56 PM | #what is the difference between being a pawn and being a spy?
michael is both ben's pawn and spy.
michael is ben's pawn. at the same time, he ordered michael to spy for him
james | Mar 14, 2008 1:24:59 PM | #Aaron is not one of the 6 because he hadn't been born when the plane crashed. I believe that all the others who were on the Island are still alive, but in a time BEFORE the plane crash. Let us not forget that time-jumping is a part of the whole Lost story line.
Arthur | Mar 14, 2008 1:28:56 PM | #ok, so the previews indicate who dies. it's a friday so having time to sit around.
anyhow, they show juliet, claire, miles, michael, desmond and jin . assuming there's no bait and switch
I think we can rule out desmond. not fulfilling the desmond/penny story seems unlikely.
probably isn't jin either. it'd be expected, and that isn't their style.
assuming that the faces shown at the end are the only ones at risk, we're left with juliet/claire/michael/miles. i think it's somewhat safe to rule out michael for a couple factors. i find it highly unlikely that they can wrap up the michael storylin