Over on Zap2It's Guide to Lost, I've seen a lot of people frustrated with the density of the show's narrative and mythology. Those people probably hated tonight's episode. Me? I'm a mythology FREAK. I'm the kind of guy who looks for the Numbers in everyday life. So I thought tonight's episode, "Confirmed Dead," was a brilliant episode that took the story of Lost on a global scale. We've seen action in all parts of the world before, but we've never quite seen so clearly just how central the Island is to the entire world. If you thought the show's scope was broad before, you ain't seen nuttin' yet.

If you've been following the online alternate-reality game Find 815 over the last few weeks, the opening shot of this episode would have made you squeal. I squealed, to be sure, and trust me, hearing a grown man squeal is plain strange. If you didn't follow the game, the opening shot would have been quite confusing. Essentially, the show opened with the final moments of the ARG: with the salvage vessel Christiane I finding the wreckage of Oceanic 815. The ending was constructed in such a way that it heavily suggested that the wreckage was in fact faked.

And lo and behold, we learn tonight that someone staged the wreckage. We learned this thanks to an alcoholic pilot named Frank, who recognized that the pilot shown on television was in fact NOT the pilot of Oceanic 815. How did he know this? Because Frank was supposed to fly Oceanic 815 that day! So why didn't he fly the plane that day? Did he call in sick? Was he bumped by his superiors? Unclear as of know, but it's safe to say that his drinking days started sometime in late September of 2004.

In fact, it's safe to say that the four on board the helicopter were affected in some primal way by the crash, for reasons they can't even understand. We have a physicist, a psychic, a zoologist, and a pilot. Three of those professions correspond strongly to research areas of the Dharma Initiative. Turns out these four were pre-selected by the ever creepy Matthew Abaddon, with the Parachutist Formerly Known as Naomi sent to get to the Island, achieve their mission, and leave without any deaths. That mission? To capture Ben Linus.

I suspect the Internet will be lit up over the next few days with people analyzing that photograph of Ben Linus possessed by Miles the Ghostbuster. That looked awfully like Benjamin was at an airport, no? If so, this throws a whole host of things into question: when did he leave the Island? How did he leave the Island? And to what purpose? Ben's a man with a strong communion with the Island and an intense desire to keep people from leaving it. So why would he ever leave?

Let me take a wild stab in the dark here, based on discussions I've been leading over on the Lost blog. Think about the runway being built in the early part of Season 3. Think about the strange project in Canada mentioned in "Through the Looking Glass." Think about the fact that Benjamin Linus is obsessed with childbirth. And finally, think about the fact that there's only one person in the world he truly cares about. And when you think about all that, there's only one reason he would ever leave the island: Annie.

Annie, as you might recall, was Ben's childhood friend when he first arrived on the Island. He kept her birthday present to him with him to present day. She is, I believe, the Rosetta stone by which you can understand every action Ben has ever taken in the show. I believe that all fertility experiments on the Island are directly tied to the fate/status of Annie. And if Ben's leaving the Island, exposing himself to the world, she must be the reason for it.

None of this, however, serves to explain why Naomi's Team is there to capture him. I'm not even sure they themselves know the true reasons why. But again, it stands to reason that they were sent there by Abaddon serving as a proxy to one Charles Widmore. Only Widmore would have access to the photograph in Naomi's possession, and only he would have the resources to stage a crash of Oceanic 815, and only he would have the knowledge of the island necessary to enable the creation of technology to work in and around its unique electromagnetic properties.

The fact that Abaddon wants the crew to return alive is what's so puzzling to me. I think we can safely say that when Abaddon asked Hurley, "Are they still alive?" in last week's episode, he was referring to them. That makes this the quickest resolving of a mystery in the history of Lost, people. This is historic. The reason for his intense curiosity could stem from Charlotte's seemingly inane question: "So you've all been living here this entire time?" This, coupled with the accepted timeline of Find 815, means that what we saw as flashbacks in this episode were flashbacks, but only from a certain point of view.

If I have this correct, when the helicopter went through what they experienced as an electrical storm, they traveled from some point after 2007 (time unclear) back into what would be, for those on the island, 2004. So the events shown in "flashback" were only flashbacks for those on the helicopter: from the perspective of those on the Island, these events haven't technically happened yet. Confused? Time travel sci-if usually is, and it's making my own head spin to even think about it. But time travel of some aspect is in play: how else to explain a fossilized polar bear with a Hydra logo adorning its collar in a desert in Tunisia?

I can't explain it, but that coupled with Abaddon's version of the A-Team coupled with Ben's travels vastly expands the scope of the show, while increasing the importance of the Island itself as possibly the most important piece of real estate that may or may not actually be a part of the rest of the world. The producers of Lost have often cited Stephen King's The Stand as an important influence, but I think you really have to look at the Island as their version of The Dark Tower: a nexus through which existence itself flows.

When Dan Faraday casually mentioned that the light on the island doesn't "scatter" quite right, he succinctly touched upon how King described Tower's Mid-World: a place related to, but quite different from, our own world. And one of the properties of Mid-World? Time has a funny way of slowing down, almost as a response to the moods of those within it. Mid-World has "moved on" by the time we meet Tower's hero, Roland, but when he tells the tale of his first love, Susan Delago, to his group (or ka-tet, in Tower terms), the night in which he tells the tale lasts unnaturally long.

The notion of ka-tet might actually help explain just why Abaddon formed this unlikely group of people in the first place. Tonight's episode strongly suggested a kinship amongst these people, one innately understood but hard to express. Frank knew the pilot, so he's suspicious. Charlotte finds a Dharma polar bear, and is intrigued. Miles more than likely sensed their presence via his psychic ability. And Dan more than likely did a little research into the crash and deduced, using his keen scientific mind, that two and two didn't add up. They all raise a little ruckus, get on Abaddon's radar, and voila: The A-Team. (Or the D-Team. D is for Dharma; that's good enough for me.)

Abaddon thus in some ways functions as a human form of ka (King's word for fate), bringing the D-Team together for reasons they cannot understand but ultimately may sense. When one member of Roland's ka-tet falls (don't worry, I won't spoil the novel), the circle is broken, and the group is no more. Perhaps Abaddon's wish to preserve their lives ties into this similar fear. 

But let's abandon such lofty terms for a moment and consider a simpler option: Abaddon works for Widmore, and Widmore wants the man responsible for the Purge. The man responsible for stopping the Dharma Initiative's important work. The man who is keeping the Island from everyone else. I will detail what I believe to be the essentials of this plan next week on the Lost blog, but sufficed to say, with Benjamin Linus out of the way, the Dharma Initiative can once again take its rightful place on the Island.

Of course, trying to capture Benjamin Linus is a tricky matter, as evidenced by the cliffhanger line of the night. When asked how he knew so much about Charlotte, and that he was the target, Ben replied, "Because I have a man on their boat." Course he does. He's Ben Freakin' Linus, y'all. He's got people, and I don't mean H&R Block. My brother called me up about five minutes after the episode aired, and he plunked down a final piece of the puzzle I had been assembling for some time.

To understand this, you must first understand that I've long believed the freighter offshore to be the Helgus Antonius, a ship featured in the first Lost ARG, "The Lost Experience." Commissioned by The Hanso Foundation in conjunction with Paik Heavy Industries (owned by Sun's father), this specialized vessel was constructed to reach unusual destinations. And in December, when discussing the identity of those aboard the freighter, I wrote the following:

So we always assumed "325" is the only direction one could use to escape the "snow globe" that is the Island, but what if "325" actually directed Michael and Walt to the Helgus Antonius? What if Ben, via Mikhail, had been monitoring local activity via The Flame, knew the Antonius was sitting out there looking for them, and thus sent Michael and Walt directly into their path?

So ladies and gentleman, we're left with the very, very real possibility that Michael is Ben's inside man on the freighter. My brother thought of Michael-as-the-mole right away, and it feels 100% correct. Now, why would Michael work for Ben? I don't know any more than I know why Abaddon chose those four to capture Benjamin Linus. But it's a heckuva theory, and I love it more than I love a good pair of wool socks after they've been sitting on the radiator for a few minutes.

There's so much more to cover than there's room for here. Be sure to visit Zap2It's Guide to Lost often throughout the season. We'll have near-daily analysis, insight, and theories.

But for now, it's your turn. Why were these people chosen? Why is it so important they all return alive? Who wants Ben, and for what purpose? Why would anyone fake a plane crash?

Ryan also posts every 108 minutes over at Boob Tube Dude. You can download his Lost podcasts here.

Comments

I know I said I wouldn't be here until later, but sleep is overrated.

This was an awesome episode. It has to be one of my favorites so far. Like you, Ryan, I love the mythology of it. It brings so much in perspective for us theorists. Most importantly, we now know who the Freighter People are.

I really have to say they did some fantastic casting for these 4. I know they say there primary objective it so bring back Ben, but what about the Dharma projects? Are they, or possibly others on the Freighter going to restart Dharma?

I'm still trying to contemplate why the plane crash was staged. Perhaps they are trying to throw somebody off there trail. I know Abaddon picked the 4 partly because of there curiousity into the crash, but who are they hiding from? I'm sure whoever staged the crash wants them to stay dead, which is why the Oceanic 6 can't talk. This even furthers the theory that the Oceanic 6 do not get home via the Freighter.

That's all I have for now. I'm sure I'll have more later once I think things through some more.

Shaggysteve | Feb 7, 2008 9:19:18 PM | #

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Wow that thing about Michael is brilliant and makes so much sense. I like the idea of the twisted time line too. Makes life seem more interesting. I want to see how the whole Jack's dad in the future works out, but I thought it was interesting that 1) they finally brought the supernatural as a real thing to the show with miles talking to ghost, and 2) that Ben had no idea what Locke was talking about when he mentioned the black smoke, that actually seemed honest and what is Lockes interest....

Sarah | Feb 7, 2008 9:22:12 PM | #

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Shaggysteve, good point too about trying to keep the survivors hidden, even Ben mentioned that they were chosen for a reason, but we have not heard that yet.

Sarah | Feb 7, 2008 9:23:47 PM | #

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One thing that occurs to me now: Tunisia could have been one of the first attempts by Hanso/Dharma to let polar bears thrive, pre-Island. Think of it as Dharma 1.0.

This way, the skeleton is not explained by time travel/moving the bear from the Island to Tunisia; it's simply an old outpost, or a "control" against Island polar bears in a remote part of our world.

Have I mentioned I love this show?

Ryan | Feb 7, 2008 9:36:44 PM | #

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One question, Ryan: If the helicopter went back in time, why would Charlotte have asked whether Aaron was born on the island? After all, she would think it's been 3 plus years, not only 90 or so days.

Austinite | Feb 7, 2008 9:42:59 PM | #

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It's unclear how briefed these five are on the unique properties of the island. That is to say, Abaddon might not have said, "When you get there, they will think only 3 months have passed, even though it's been 3/4/5 years here." Ditto on "They can't have babies conceived on the Island." Abaddon seems pretty darn "need to know" in his approach.

Ryan | Feb 7, 2008 9:45:46 PM | #

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I see that, but the fact that she asked the question would indicate that she WAS briefed. Or that she had an independent source of knowledge that time moves slower on the island.

Austinite | Feb 7, 2008 9:52:49 PM | #

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Equally possible she was gathering intel. After all, by episode's end, she was busted like Ben was after Sayid went looking for Henry's balloon.

Ryan | Feb 7, 2008 10:07:05 PM | #

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I have been watching this blog for awhile now from afar, but I wanted to chip in on this whole time travel thing.

Not to be blunt, but I don't buy it. I don't buy it because I don't get it. Not to say I am a simpleton, but there are so many theories out there that I get really skeptical when they get "out there" and the one about the time travel and the mentioning of the Dark Tower Saga is waaaayyyy "out there" to me... I like how you put everything into place and it makes sense, but what about Penny talking to Charlie? I know we could say that the conversation took place with 2007 Penny and 2004 Charlie, but it still wouldn't make any sense and I really don't have a concrete reason and it frustrates me. Another point is the fact that all of the freighter people had some sort of contact with news of Oceanic Flight 815, but was it in 2007 or 2004? And how would Ben have all this information on all of these people if he was still stuck in 2004? If he leaves the Island in 2004 and enters 2007 then wouldn't time have slowed down on the Island and sped up each time off? Ok now my head is about to explode. I still think that Ben works for whomever is behind all of this and he just went rogue and they are trying to stop him. Also, the big confusion is why would creepy Abaddon guy want Naomi to think that there were no survivors of 815 and why would they go as far as possible to fake the plane crash so far away from the actual plane crash? My guess is not a one of a kind one, but I believe like what everyone else does that this island is not supposed to be found and it is conducting highly dangerous experiments that if found out by the general public would be a huge disaster in the order of things. But like I said, my brain is about to explode and I am confused so please excuse my inane blubbering?

Mark O. Estes | Feb 7, 2008 10:40:44 PM | #

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I hate to double post, but I still think that the time travel bit is too far out there and by that I mean it doesn't fit for me for some reason. Not everyone had the luxury of doing the Lost Experience (and God knows I wish I had the time and energy to do so...), but I feel as if this can back fire with the main audience who isn't too deep into the mythology of the show, because outside interference (Find815.com, the LOST Experience, etc.) can turn viewers off if they are not that deeply invested in it. Unlike those like you and I, Ryan, people tend to tune out when there is all of this mythology that you have to know to get the show. You would be amazed at how many people I have heard since the premiere who have tuned out because of all the excess stuff that was out there. Another example is Cloverfield (which I think is sheer brilliance), so many people hated the fact that you had to read a Japanese manga, look at various faux websites, and other things to get the origin of the monster. I don't know. As much as I think that J.J. Abrams is a complete genius, others might think he is a complete nutcase that has too much time and knowledge on his hands and doesn't know what to do with it. i just wish I was in his shoes. But Ryan you are the right guy for this job and I can't do anything else but commend you.

Mark O. Estes | Feb 7, 2008 10:54:49 PM | #

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I need to not read this stuff, because I think I see something and think it's brilliant, then I read your post and it makes my head explode. Helicopter coming from a different time?

Ugh, why must you do this to me?

Corey | Feb 7, 2008 11:33:50 PM | #

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I had a theory, one that started last season. That theory was that the "crash" of Oceanic 815 was indeed faked. Why? Because if you are going to an island, to test a secret superweapon and probably kill everyone there, then it helps if they are already considered dead to the world at large.

When Daniel saw the metal box, he was obviously worried. He didn't want Jack looking it in, and lo and behold, the box held gas masks and bags with hazard logos on it. When you consider the superweapon being developed by the breakaway faction within Dharma, the pieces start to fall into place.

Of course, the other theory I got working is that maybe the masks and bags were for the supposed "plague" that killed Rousseau's team and/or might be the same gas Benny boy used on Dharma 1. And in light of Ben being the prime objective, it stands to reason the Freighters would have known about the gas and prepared for the possibility that it still pervaded through the island.

I'm not sure the helicopter traveled back in time. I didn't play Find 815, so I don't know when the storyline is set. Because of that, I think that tonight's flashbacks took place in the months between when Oceanic 815 crashed onto the island and now; between Sept. 2004 and Dec. 2004. A few months is more than enough time to find the wreckage (or fake one), declare everyone dead, and send the Freighters to the island. Sure, doesn't explain the polar bear in Tunisia, but those bones looked pretty old; for all we know, that bear found it's way to the "real world" before 815 even crashed, maybe as far back as Dharma 1.

Sean | Feb 8, 2008 12:24:51 AM | #

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Huh? Wait. So what Happened Last Night?

| Feb 8, 2008 5:34:23 AM | #

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i didn't play any of the internet games either, and if that's what it takes to understand this show, then forget it. While I have read some King books like "The Stand," I haven't read any of the "Tower" series, so explanations using "Tower" would be completely lost on me, so to speak. I've watched since Day 1 and have been able to follow it without visiting any of the websites. But, last night was a little confusing to me.

I don't buy into the time travel theory either. Like Sean said, I choose to think that we were given flashbacks via 2004 last night. Can I explain the polar bear fossils? Of course not, but whose to say Dharma wasn't experimenting with bears when they first arrived on the island in the 1970s or 1980s? Wouldn't that account for fossil remains? But how they got to Tunisia, who knows? Aliens? UFOs? I think Mulder and Scully need to investigate!

I also thought of Michael & Walt immediately after Ben said, "I've got a man on their boat." Ben clearly knows how to exploit people's weaknesses for his own gain, so he must be exploiting Michael's need to get home in some way. That would also explain Locke's vision of Walt telling him the 4 people coming to the island were dangerous. If Walt's on the freighter with Michael, he would know.

My head's starting to hurt.

Linda | Feb 8, 2008 6:06:20 AM | #

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I don't think you had to have followed Find815 to get the basic point: a boat named Christiane I found what looked like the wreackage of Oceanic 815. The Find815 game added a few extra things, but that's the same basic point.

I would talk about time travel unless the producers and actors didn't talk about it themselves.

http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=23952

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20169281_3,00.html

Toss that in with the Orchid video, and I can't see how you CAN'T look at the ways time works differently on and off the Island.

I mean, I'm known for pulling wild theories out of my posterior region, but while I may be wrong on the specifics, but this element HAS to be in play.

Ryan | Feb 8, 2008 6:28:46 AM | #

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completely amazing episode!! but can now definitely understand people who get frustrated and confused, but to me that makes the show more fun.

As far as time travel or differing time lines between the island and the "real world", I'm still unsure if that's really going on. I mean, for one, Ben shows Juliet images from Sep. 22, 2004 the day the plane crashes in the Flame with Mikail. If Juliet has been on the island for 3 island years then wouldn't she notice something up if 2004 was too far ahead. Plus, for all Ben and the Others know about them, it clearly did not seem as though they expected 815 to crash on the island and Ben wanted a workup on all the survivors after the plane arrived.

All that said, the finding of the Dharma logo on the polar bear in Tunisia was plain creepy and did make it seem that somehow the island was back in the past, but it can't be too far in the past if Dharma was started in the 70s as we've been led to believe. So somehow the brilliant writers at LOST have confused the heck out of everything and we still don't really know what's going on!!!

As for Michael/Walt on the freighter, that is exactly what I thought when Ben said he had a man on the boat. Naomi did say the freighter was West of the island and M&W were sent on a North-West heading so he definitely could have run into the freighter. The only issue with this is that the "wreckage" of 815 apparently was found about 2 months after the crash which is just about when Michael and Walt left on that boat off the dock at the end of Season 2 (also the time the sky turned purple allowing Penny and apparently Abbaddon/Widmore's people to locate the island again to assemble this D-team). So while it sounds plausible the D-team could have been assembled quickly, between November-December 2004, I don't know if it could have been assembled in mere days or a week or two as the current timeline suggests.

Sorry for the long post, but I do have a question for y'all. I do try to pay attention, but I may have missed something. What was Miles' connection or pull to the news of the finding of 815 besides the threat he posed since he can commune with the dead? What I mean is, Dan was seen crying at the news, Charlotte was obsessed with reading articles about it, and Frank saw the fake footage and got upset, but I didn't see Miles have any kind of reaction like the other three even when he was listening on the radio as he pulled up to that woman's house. So is there any significance to that?? Also, why didn't we get to see Dan's wife's(I'm assuming) face in the beginning. not important, or do we know her somehow already?

Craig | Feb 8, 2008 6:48:19 AM | #

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I think everybody is overthinking this. Yes, there probably is some time travel element in this show, but i don't buy the helicopter time traveling. I think they are still in late 2004 on the show and the polar bear skeleton was probably part of the time travel experiment that was taking place on the island. Michael being the mole would make sense. I figured since he was back as a regular that he was going to have to be on the boat with them. However, when Ben let him go at the end of season 2, he really seemed to be completely confused by what was going on and certainly didn't look as though he would ever consider working with Ben.
Not enough was mentioned here regarding the Locke gang. That was the most fascinating part to me. Locke and Ben realizing that Hurley saw Jacob's cabin too. Locke asking Ben point blank about Smokey and Ben being completely clueless. Yet another miraculous coincidence where Ben shot Locke yet because he lost his kidney it was a minor wound. And am i the only one who has noticed that Sawyer seems to be following Hurley? He allied himself with Locke primarily because Hurley went first and then when he was about to kill Ben, he let up primarily because Hurley gave him a look not to. Just minor speculation, but i thought it was interesting to note.

Steve | Feb 8, 2008 6:50:27 AM | #

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Mark ... Austinite...I agree with you guys. I don't believe the time bending theory for two reasons. First, at the end of Season 2, Desmond showed..I can't remember if it was Locke or Jack...the computer printout on the day that he killed the Dharma scientist and failed to re-set the computer. He said, " I think I crashed your plane." The printout showed the date as 09222004. If Desmond recognized the date as Sep 22, 2004, and the survivors recognized the same date, that tells me that both the island and the outsid world were on the same timeline. Secondly, there is Penny. Desmond arrived on the island 3 years before the plane crash. If the world is 3 years ahead of the island, that means that Desmond has been there six years in Earth time. I know that Penny loves him, but after 6 years, it just seems logical that she would move on with her life. If the producers are going to use this time trael angle, they have to adequately explain these two items, or the theory will not be plausible.

One theory.....when I think about Dharma, a super weapon, and the virus, I think of the James Bond movie Moonraker. Could it be that Dharma was trying to wipe out the population of the Earth, or just a region of the world, and start their own master race? Did anyone notice that almost all of the Dharma people were highly educated and skilled people like Juliette? The fact that they have all of these different types of animals on the island makes me think that they want the virus to kill people but not animals. The problem, other than Ben, was that the virus killed all of the women who tried to have children. Now, they (Dharma, Hanso) have to either 'fix' the virus, or they have to find some other way to perpetuate their race. Just a thought.....

Pete | Feb 8, 2008 6:50:41 AM | #

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I believe that Charlotte is an anthropologist, rather than a zoologist? Or maybe she's both, I think I remember Ben talking about her having two advanced degrees... but I know that one of them was cultural anthro.

Good analysis! I totally forgot about the runway and the "Canada" project mention... both of which would appear to fit together with a picture of Ben seemingly "off-island."

Caro | Feb 8, 2008 6:56:27 AM | #

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Caro: Cultural anthropologist, yes. Good catch on that. I was too busy screaming "HYDRA LOGO! HYDRA LOGO!" to really think about her profession.

I need to go back and look at the polar bear skeletons in the cave in the beginning of Season 3 now and compare with the one in Tunisia.

Ryan | Feb 8, 2008 6:59:30 AM | #

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ok, that HASto be a top 5 best episode EVER!!!!!!!

some tidbits:

Faraday = In physics, the faraday (not to be confused with the farad) is an obsolete unit of electrical charge, which has been replaced by the SI unit, the coulomb. One faraday is equal to the charge of one mole of electrons (approximately 96485.3415 coulombs).

Lapidus = Lapidus is a Jewish family name derived from the Hebrew biblical male given name Lapidot, husband of the prophetess Deborah (Judges 4:4). The literal meaning of the name is "torches" or "candles".

it'll be intersting to see if he ends up with a woman on the island.

Charlotte Staples Lewis = C.S. Lewis (ok, that's from the Doc at EW, but its still REALLY COOL!!!)

and Miles Strom is kinda obvious. but thought the Faraday thing was really interesting.

am so very down with time travel thing. hey, if the plane went down in 2004, then Abbadon/Widmore would have ample time to get the D-team together for a trip in 2007.

while i'm intrigued by Michael as the inside man for Ben, i'll wait and see. you never know...it could be Patchy.

mri | Feb 8, 2008 7:04:05 AM | #

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Ryan..... you are way overthinking everything (especially all that time stuff).

And I have no doubt in my mind that the 'Them' is referring to some of the 815 survivors still on the island, NOT the copter crew. Why else would Charlie tell Hurley that 'they' need him?

Michael | Feb 8, 2008 7:49:08 AM | #

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Great episode and another fantastic analysis.

A co-worked of mine brought up a good point on this episode: What if what we were seeing of the four new guys was actually a flash-forward? The Abbandon and Naomi conversation was most definitely before going to the Island but none of the others gave a definite time-line. What if they found the plane, went there and "do wat dey do" and now we are seeing them enthralled with the discovery of the wreckage? Maybe the pilot is cracking up might squeal about what is really going on and the physicist feels guilty about it and that is why he is crying?

The only evidence that contradicts this is the "Confirmed Dead" aspect of the survivors so where are the Oceanic 6? Maybe they are in holding somewhere by DHARMA or Penny and are going to be trumpeted out later?

Sean | Feb 8, 2008 8:10:44 AM | #

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For the guy who wondered why we didn't see a visual of Daniel's wife? Maybe it's Jack's Ex, Sarah.

T G | Feb 8, 2008 8:32:56 AM | #

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If the crew and passengers of Oceanic 815 are confirmed dead (faked or not, how do the Oceanic 6 survive, let alone be rescued and how does the world they return to accept their explanation, whatever it is?

Puff | Feb 8, 2008 8:35:52 AM | #

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Puff: the crash explains why the Oceanic 6 become "celebs": they are the ones who lived.

TG: I actually wonder if we'll see that was Libby. That's where I'd put my money down.

Ryan | Feb 8, 2008 8:53:46 AM | #

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Ryan: What I mean is the physical aspects of their rescue. We're talking the Sundra Trench here, deep,deep, deep. Did the plane hit the water and 6 got out into a raft? or did the plane dive into the trench with no one able to escape (as appears to be the case from the video, and tested by Frank's model in the fish tank). If, as it looks now, Penny's people actually rescue the O6, where are they found (what's the cover story) and why should anybody believe they survived, due to the nature of the crash.
I am definately awaiting that explanation.

Puff | Feb 8, 2008 9:07:41 AM | #

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im not buying the whole time travel thing.

the scenes where the BOATIES were watching the wreckage discovery were FLASHBACKS.

the team got assembled sometime in 2007.

look back at the episode and check the dollars MILES was counting. a couple of the 20 dollar bills are the new version of 20 bills. the one with the maroon strikes with em. not just plain green ones.

i rewatched all of the flashbacks several times to make sure i didnt miss anything.

James | Feb 8, 2008 9:12:47 AM | #

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If time travel is involved, then I'm thinking of Stephen King's "The Langoliers" not "Dark Tower".
In Langoliers only the people asleep on the plane made the jump back in time, everyone else evaporated. Now think Juliet drinking the Dharma kool-aid to fall asleep for her trip to the island.....kind of makes sense to think about it like that.
Also, compare how Dan said the light was different on the island. In Langoliers the light and everything else was different because it was old, dying and about to be eaten by the time monster because they were really not that far back in time and time was catching up to them.
I really am not a fan of time-travel sci-fi but, it does make for some really interesting speculation.

Chris | Feb 8, 2008 9:33:20 AM | #

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Chris: given the strife and confusion evidenced here, I'm not a big fan of it, either. But if the producers and actors are saying it's in play, well, I'm going to look for it, analyze it, and try to come up with theories and conclusions.

I've also thought about "The Langoliers" as well:

http://www.ryan-mcgee.com/movable/archives/002389.html

Chris | Feb 8, 2008 9:47:14 AM | #

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Whoops, that was me in the last comment, not Chris. My bad.

Ryan | Feb 8, 2008 9:56:00 AM | #

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I agree with most people posting that there was no time travel involved. No one would find a nearly intact human body three years after a plane crash in the ocean.

An unrelated point that I note every single Lost article writer seems to have missed: Oceanic 815's pilot. First, Ryan, the reason Frank knew the underwater pilot body they showed on the tv news was not the man they claimed he was was because Frank knew the man and - because the corpse was not wearing a wedding ring - knew the corpse was not the man the tv news identified because Frank was a friend of his and knew he would never take off his wedding ring.

Secondly, the point most Lost article writers havs missed is that the man identified in a photo on the tv program Frank watched and identified as the pilot could not possibly be the pilot: Greg Grunberg is the actor who played pilot Seth Norris (as we all know, killed early on in the show by the island Monster). Greg Grunberg and the man shown in the photo (middle aged with a large mustache?) look nothing alike. Why would Frank believe the man identified in the tv photo as the pilot of Oceanic 815 was his friend and pilot (though not the corpse), when the photo of the man Frank believed to be the pilot clearly does not match the man we know to be Pilot Seth Norris?

Wendy | Feb 8, 2008 9:58:52 AM | #

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During one of the news reports about the discovery of the Oceanic wreckage, the reporter says the flight disappeared "two months ago". That kind of blows a hole in the whole 2007 thing, doesn't it?

Craig | Feb 8, 2008 10:01:19 AM | #

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What on earth is everyone talking about with the time travel thing? There is no reason to think anything in the episode happened in 2007. The plane was found a couple of months after the crash, the team was assembled, they went to the island, and now they have found the survivors... why would you think anything different?

Neil | Feb 8, 2008 10:32:46 AM | #

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"Greg Grunberg and the man shown in the photo (middle aged with a large mustache?) look nothing alike."

That was a photo of Greg Grunberg with a moustache.

| Feb 8, 2008 10:34:32 AM | #

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Looks like Grunberg to me, they just slapped a mustache on him.

http://www.docarzt.com/402egg7.JPG

Amazing episode, and interesting analysis. I think the stuff here is way more on target than anything else I've read, particularly Widmore being behind the search. I think there is some time slipping going on, but not full on time travel. Time likely passes slower on the island, but that's probably about it - I think some people are overthinking it and I doubt the final answer will be that complicated.

milo | Feb 8, 2008 10:38:43 AM | #

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The 2007 stuff comes from the fact that the online ARG Find815 was launched at the end of 2007, and by all accounts, took place in the "real world," ie, our world. The game followed a man who ended up on the boat that discovered the false wreckage of Oceanic 815. he took it upon himself to find the plane after Oceanic called off what it called an "unprecedented" search.

Coinciding with this game were a series of billboards for Oceanic Airlines announcing that they were relaunching service. Again, this seemed to indicate that the events in the game were happening in 2007/2008.

Furthermore, the last online game, "The Lost Experience", took place in 2006, with the protagonist Rachel Blake confronting the cast and crew at ComiCon.

With ALL of that in mind, it made the discovery of Oceanic 815 in the Find815 game seem like it took place in January of 2008.

Now, if the reports in the show says what Craig describes, then the game really, really mislead a lot of people. I'll look up a transcript or rewatch tonight and see for sure. But this is all pointing towards a huge continuity error which quite frankly is annoying as all get out.

Ryan | Feb 8, 2008 10:43:50 AM | #

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Keep at it, folks.

I'm trying to catch up with three years of this show.

You're my only hope!

Jan | Feb 8, 2008 10:47:59 AM | #

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TG - Dan's wife being Sarah (Jack's ex) is an interesting idea.

Ryan - how could it possibly be Libby - the scene involved them finding the plane so Libby would have been on the island and now is dead? Plus, her husband was Dave if I remember correctly, not Dan. But I guess anything is possible on LOST.

We'll have to wait and see if time travel, bending, or something similar is involved, but it could be another misdirection either on purpose or accidental. Wasn't the big theory in season 1 and 2 that they were already dead. Then it moved to they were all in Hurley's head or were all in the mental institution. So, maybe time travel isn't really going on, we'll see. Either way, don't think about it too much, it'll make your head hurt!

Craig | Feb 8, 2008 10:58:17 AM | #

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Ryan, how can that be Libby? Libby was most definitely on 815 so she couldn't have been somewhere else watching the recovery of the wreckage when we knew she was dead.

Also, I loved the code "Tell my sister I love her". I had a sneaking suspicion that this was a code but I also starting thinking of all of the people who could have been Naomi's sister (Rose, Klugh). The writer's have done a great job of making us think of everything as a possibility.

That's why the time travel possibility is so viable because NOTHING is off of the table when it comes to LOST.

Sean | Feb 8, 2008 10:58:34 AM | #

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Damn Craig beat me to the Libby conundrum by 17 seconds!

Sean | Feb 8, 2008 10:59:53 AM | #

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Oh please, oh please don't be time travel. It's like they're adding supernatural elements now because the hole they've dug themselves is way too deep to climb out of with reasonable explainations. So now we have time travel, a psychic, what's next - deus ex machina? Will the series finale be special guest star God coming in and saying that he did it all by magic? I'm still completely into the show, but it's definitely not the same show I started watching lo these many years ago.

Also I don't think Faraday would be with Jack's ex, because she might have some sort of reaction to the crash footage herself.

Nonnie Muss | Feb 8, 2008 11:25:36 AM | #

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Ryan asked: "Now, why would Michael work for Ben?"

Could this be answered by thinking back to Ben trying to brain-wash Carl? Could Ben have brain-washed Michael?

Denise | Feb 8, 2008 11:37:21 AM | #

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^^^ simple reason

probably BEN has WALT somewhere. again

James | Feb 8, 2008 11:47:01 AM | #

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Duh about Libby. Of course. My bad.

Whomever Dan's wife is, we've either seen her before or she'll become important, methinks.

Denise: I wouldn't rule out Room 23 for Michael at all. Something in Ben's last words could have been a trigger.

Ryan | Feb 8, 2008 11:53:51 AM | #

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My husband started in on time travel theories this morning, and I had the same reaction as Mark Estes above--my brain is exploding. lol Then again, I'm willing to entertain the notion of teleportation (the Magic Box, how DID Locke's father end up on the island), which is almost as equally mind-bending.

Michael as Ben's "man on the boat." Works for me.

I gotta say this--Team D, or whatever you want to call them, already appeal to me a lot more than the Others. But Miles Strom? Maelstrom? ODG.

meggins | Feb 8, 2008 12:08:35 PM | #

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Another thought about time travel/bending etc. that I don't think I've seen mentioned yet - When Locke told them about seeing Walt he mentioned that he was "bigger" - I took that to mean older. Obviously Malcolm David Kelly, the actor playing Walt, was a couple years older by that time but for the show to point is out as well means something, doesn't it?

Rick | Feb 8, 2008 12:14:33 PM | #

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Why should we be so sure there's so much time travel involved. I'm no body decomposing expert, but the pilot in the fake wreckage didn't look like it had been there for 3+ years. I always pictured the d-team being assembled a few months after the crash (90 some days like the time on the island). But then again, would there be such worldwide attention of finding the plane if it had only been missing for 2 months?

Aaron | Feb 8, 2008 1:04:24 PM | #

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This is a totally gross and morbid thought, but if the wreckage was found in 2007 or 2008, why wasn't the pilot's body more decomposed? I would think that over the course of several years, marine life would have consumed all of the flesh from the corpses, leaving just bones.

AD | Feb 8, 2008 1:07:52 PM | #

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Aaron: There's another thing to consider. Perhaps the fake wreck was contructed before Oceanic 815 ever take off. Days/weeks/months...who knows? But before September 22, 2004. I think that's the most logical way to go about it, especially if you're an organization that plans to send a specific plane full of specific people towards a mysterious island.

Just food for thought.

Ryan | Feb 8, 2008 1:08:59 PM | #

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I'm going to shoot some rocks into some balloons for a moment and say this: while it's awesome to theorize on what is actually going on, and I've enjoyed every one of the posts I've read this week and elsewhen (semi-channeling Neil Gaiman, pardon me), the only way that all of us will really be able to say for absolute certainty what has gone and will go on regarding this show is when the super-duper-deluxe DVD compilation comes out sometime in 2013 or so. Then we'll be able to watch every second of every episode back-to-back and parse the entire series to our hearts' content, and I'll love every minute of it. In the meantime, I'll chime in on the Stephen King/Dark Tower references and point out that there is also his book The Talisman (co-written with Peter Straub) where the main character is able to shift back and forth between two different worlds, often ending up miles and miles away upon re-entering the "real" world. I've not seen much about parallel universes being bandied about lately, and it may just be something that has no chance as a verifiable theory, but I'll throw it out there anyway. Perhaps the island (or The Island, if you will) is a portal or waystation between these universes and this is why incongruous items such as a polar bear in a tropical climate show up from time to time. As long as this entire strange trip doesn't turn out to be a long trek through the Bermuda Triangle, though; that would be beyond disappointing.

Dark Disciple | Feb 8, 2008 2:10:38 PM | #

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"Wasn't the big theory in season 1 and 2 that they were already dead. Then it moved to they were all in Hurley's head or were all in the mental institution."

Both of those theories were voiced after the very first episode. And both were strongly denied by the producers very quickly. They have been very clear that the people are alive and literally on a physical island. That doesn't rule out time travel though.

And Nonnie, the supernatural elements aren't new, they've been on the show since the first season. Claire went to see a psychic. Walt has been hinted to have psychic/telekinetic powers. Visions of dead people appear to many characters. Last season Desmond started predicting the future. And let's not forget, the very first episode of the show introduced a monster, which turned out to be a sentient cloud of smoke.

If you don't like those elements of the show, then you don't like them. But it's not like they started with a show completely grounded in reality and suddenly started adding scifi elements in the fourth season.

milo | Feb 8, 2008 2:22:49 PM | #

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If time moves more slowly on the island, then Ben (who came to the island as a child) should be a younger than what his appearance is (around 40). In his flashback, the earliest he could have been born is the late 60's. He came to the island as a pre-teen (early 80's), so he probably has lived close to 30 years on the Island. If one year in real world is one month on the Island, he would still be a teenager.

Cherokee | Feb 8, 2008 2:30:14 PM | #

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If time moves more slowly on the island, then Ben (who came to the island as a child) should be a younger than what his appearance is (around 40). In his flashback, the earliest he could have been born is the late 60's. He came to the island as a pre-teen (early 80's), so he probably has lived close to 30 years on the Island. If one year in real world is one month on the Island, he would still be a teenager.

Cherokee | Feb 8, 2008 2:30:26 PM | #

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I think's Sean's comments above that the D-Team's life off of the island were flash-forwards makes the most sense. It would explain why the physicist was nervous, it explains why the pilot knew it was a fake (he couldn't say that he had been to the island), it explains why the anthropologist was willing to pay a lot of money to find something related to the Dharma initiative and will not believe the reports about the plane...the pshycic, not a particularly caring person, is detached enough that he just turns off the radio...maybe the D-team returns before the Oceanic 6 do as that would make the flash forwards make sense.

Adam | Feb 8, 2008 2:42:59 PM | #

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i agree with a lot of your theories and think the michael thing is genius, but the whole time travel thing is silly. why would it be 2007 for the four of them? all we know is shortly after the plane crashed they saw this footage online, were assembled together, and now are on the island. everything we saw took place in the months between the crash and the 4 landing on the island. what does 2007 have to do with anything??

tonester | Feb 8, 2008 2:47:14 PM | #

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Cherokee- I raised this same point in regards to the ageless-ness of Richard Alpert. The only explanation might be that he left the island for a period of time (perhaps when his photo was taken?) and then returned after aging a few years?

Either way, this theory is a lot of fun. Whether you agree with it or not or if it makes your head explode, it's fun to talk about it with other people and get their perspective.

Sean | Feb 8, 2008 2:48:24 PM | #

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the problem with the flashforward idea is that, why wouldn't abbadon know they are alive? i mean, abbadon is either referring to the d-team, the others, or survivors. either way, if the d-team returned, you'd imagine they would have reported to abbadon about something, whatever it is that abbadon wants them to go after.

tony | Feb 8, 2008 2:54:41 PM | #

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I don't think I'm into the time travel thing either. Although I LOVED the ep, I wasn't crazy about the psychic thing--then somehow they got me on board with it..I LOVE THIS SHOW!

A couple of things that confuse me: 1. Ben said that the "rescuers" were there for him, yet Charlotte was perfectly content to let him be killed by Locke without doing anything about it. I mean, even if they were there to harm him, I would think that if they've come all that way they would at least want to keep that privilege for themselves...it seemed that that they wanted him for a specific reason--rather than to just kill him. (2) If Naomi was with them on that mission, why didn't she react when she saw Ben for the first time? Why didn't she try to kill him? Especially since she is the one with the military training--she'd be the one that would do it. (3) When did Ben and Danielle hook up to have the kid [name?]. Maybe this is when he briefly left the island and somehow pissed some people off. (4) If Ben truly didn't know what Locke was talking about with the island monster, why is he apparently the only one who doesn't see it since we know that so many of the islanders have encountered it?

i love this show!

Lisa | Feb 8, 2008 3:05:33 PM | #

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I also agree that some maybe over thinking the references. I would be VERY disappointed if I needed to read Stephen King's The Tower to know what's going on.

Lisa | Feb 8, 2008 3:07:25 PM | #

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oh! and one more thing: Did anyone else notice that when Charlotte found the Dharma belt her look was one of and expected find?

Lisa | Feb 8, 2008 3:09:23 PM | #

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Some things have been falling into place for me since hearing that Stephen King's The Stand is an important influence on Lost.

In The Dark Tower series it was revealed that all the events that took place in The Stand did not actually take place in our universe. It was actually a parrallel universe that accidentally killed the entire population of the world.

The Dark Tower was sort of the gateway between all these different parallel worlds. There were also gateways into different moments of time. In the Drawing of the Three there were characters drawn to midworld from three different time periods.

What if the Island is a similar nexus point between parallel worlds and dimensions.

So what if there are two parallel worlds and the moment that the numbers were not entered into the computer somehow this simultaneously effected two mirror planes in two different universes to be effected. In one universe (Let's call it Universe A) a plane crashed into the bottom of the ocean. In the other universe (Universe B) the Airplane was pulled into the time bubble and crashed on the Island with 48 survivors.

The Island is a time bubble and time doesn't move. It is still moving in both Universes though and the Island Bubble can be entered from any point in time or either universe.

The Black Rock is a 1600s slave ship that entered the island in the 1600s. Unfortunately when it entered the ISland it hit land and was destroyed.

The French woman entered at some other time.

So what if the Dharma Initiative and the Rescue party is not actually from the same Universe as the survivors. They are part of this Universe that is slightly different then ours.

The Oceanic Six have been rescued but they have been returned to the alternate Universe. That is why they must get back to the Island and return to their own Universe.

This Universe is slightly different. Jack's father is still alive, Kate is not a fugitive, the Oceanic Pilot was married.

Jason | Feb 8, 2008 3:15:41 PM | #

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Tony - if the D-Team returns first and the Oceanic 6 return later, then Abadon would know that there were initially survivors, but would not know if there were still other survivors when the Oceanic 6 returned. In other words, both are flash forwards, but the flashforwards of the Oceanic 6 are more forward. Also, this theory is consistent with a faked crash in 2007 (I didn't play the game, but it sounds like that was a part of it).

Adam | Feb 8, 2008 3:17:56 PM | #

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Ryan, this blog is great. I have a lot of ideas, but you always seem to phrase them much better than me.

As for this episode, i really liked it, but i thought that it revealed more than usual in a lost episode. I mean, since when does ben reveal information to the losties?! And am I wrong or vincent didn't appear in season 3? Wasn't he dead? Why did locke ask about smoky? where are the rest of the others (the ones not killed in the beach)? And why are you so sure that it's all widmore doing?

On another note, I agree with the time difference in the island, michael being a mole and the faked accident, but i think the flashbacks are from shortly after the crash, or else everyone would have notticed the bodies not decomposing.

I may seem like a million years behind you on this, but i would really like to know thw answers to these questions.

Keep up the awesome work

sin_laden | Feb 8, 2008 3:25:37 PM | #

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LIsa

Ben is Alex's adpoted father. Not her real father.

Jason | Feb 8, 2008 3:26:45 PM | #

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Were the polar bear bones referred to as fossils? They certainly weren't fossilized (i.e. - turned to stone, a process that would take a couple thousand years). The leather collar would have decomposed, even in dessert conditions, if the bear had been there for that long.

If the time travel element is valid, Desmond would have been on the island for close to ten years (as others have pointed out), and the French woman for 45 years. Yet her radio equipment in the radio tower booth, is totally modern (and how has it been operating all these years with no source of power?).

But time altering does explain one mystery for me: Richard Alpert (the character, not the cohort of Timothy Leary in his LSD days). He first meets Ben as a scraggly member of the "Others" and now is one of Ben's right hand men—but has not aged at all.

Which of course brings us back to the central mystery of season one: who are the Others? They were on the island before the Dharma teams arrived. How did they get there? What were they doing there? Why were they such a threat to Dharma? The beauty, and the frustration, of Lost is the show's ability to string on another strand of mysterious baubles, without ever answering the previous puzzles.

Wouldn't it be disappointing to find out that the producers/writers of the show resorted to a time travel motif simply because the child actor playing Walt grew too quickly?

William Robinson | Feb 8, 2008 3:29:57 PM | #

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Now that it is almost a day later, a few more things have come to mind.

Naomi asks Abaddon, 'What if we find plane survivors on the island?' Maybe I missed something, but why would she think there would be survivors on THAT island? This kinda leads me to believe that maybe it is just the closest island to the wreckage. Why else would she say that? Was she told something else?

Another question, that might be better to discuss on the blog, is where is Danielle's boat? She claims that she was on-board a science expedition when it crashed on the Island. Her ship-mates were killed by a virus, and has not seen anyone including the Others in 16 years. She has always seemed a bit odd, but her story doesn't add up. She was part of a science expedition, could she have been a part of Dharma? This would explain why they were killed, and why she has been in hiding. I don't remember ever coming across her wreckage. Also, Ben is adamant about being Alex's father. Could he have left the Island, conceived Alex, then returned to the Island and kidnapped her? I know, I know, I'm probably stretching it a bit, but I think something is difinitely not right about Danielle.

Shaggysteve | Feb 8, 2008 3:39:06 PM | #

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oh and saw this other places and thought it was interesting so went to wikipedia to get more info. enjoy:

A FARADAY CAGE or FARADAY SHIELD is an enclosure formed by conducting material, or by a mesh of such material. Such an enclosure blocks out external static electrical fields. Faraday cages are named after physicist Michael Faraday, who built one in 1836.

An external static electrical field will cause the electrical charges within the conducting material to redistribute themselves so as to cancel the field's effects in the cage's interior. This effect is used, for example, to protect electronic equipment from lightning strikes and other electrostatic discharges.

To a large degree, Faraday cages also shield the interior from external electromagnetic radiation if the conductor is thick enough and any holes are significantly smaller than the radiation's wavelength. For example, certain test procedures of electronic components or systems that require an environment devoid of electromagnetic interference may be conducted within a so-called screen room. These screen rooms are essentially labs or work areas that are completely enclosed by one or more layers of fine metal mesh or perforated sheet metal. The metal layers are connected to earth ground to dissipate any electric currents generated from the external electromagnetic fields, and thus block a large amount of the electromagnetic interference. This application of Faraday cages is explained under electromagnetic shielding.

mri | Feb 8, 2008 3:42:50 PM | #

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I don't the bear bones were fossils - the show never said that, but some people are making that assumption.

milo | Feb 8, 2008 3:44:50 PM | #

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i'm clearly obsessed with the Faraday thing...references and character both. hope the other 3 of the D-team prove as interesting.

mri | Feb 8, 2008 3:45:21 PM | #

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Ok a few things:
1. Find815 did not take place in 2007/2008. I just went back to look at the beginning of Chapter 1. Notice the stock market crawl at the bottom of the newscast where Sam is being interviewed? The Dow is shown as being at 8400 or so. The Dow has not been that low since 2003-2004. In fact, looking at the Dow history, this may be a slight snafu on the editor's part as it may have been 2003 when it was that low, which would predate the crash. However, it definitely was not 2007 or 2008.
2. The fact that the writers and producers of the show draw inspiration, and maybe even allude to, other works of fiction (like the works of Stephen King) does not mean that you have to have read or seen those to understand the show. Literary allusions have been around for some time. I'm pretty sure that The Stand and The Dark Tower books are not required reading to enjoy Lost.
3. Re: Naomi asking about survivors on the island (and Mr. Abaddon's creepy answer of "There are no survivors") just means that some people off the island know about the island. That's pretty much a given - Dharma, Widemore, Hanso, etc. all know about the island, and in fact at some point knew how to get to the island. People who know about the island also know that its been a nexus point for shipwrecks, etc. for a long time - Naomi put two and two together to surmise that maybe that was where 815 was. I'm guessing she's not the only one, which is probably why Penny was broadcasting on the frequency that just happened to be coming into the Looking Glass Station. The tricky part with the island is finding it.
4. I didn't think Ben was clueless about Smoky, I thought he was just being deliberately obtuse, like he usually is. Then again, Juliet didn't know about it before she ran into last season. Kudo's to Locke for finally asking about it. Its nice to see one of the questions we have actually be asked in the show. Same with the comment on Walt being "bigger".
5. Re: Ben being off the island. Why not? We know that there have been several of the Others off the island as operatives, why wouldn't Ben be one of them at times. Its clear that there is some sort of organization behind the others that - they seemed to have a pretty impressive complex at the research facility where Juliet boarded the submarine from. They had someone collecting, gathering, and sending data to them before communications to the mainland went down. As for Ben, you know, I love my home, I like being in my home, I would give my life to protect my home, but I do need to leave it from time to time.
6. Despite my above statements on Find815, I do think that there is some sort of oddness with the island and the time/space continuum. Its pretty clear that the laws of physics work slightly differently there. However, I don't think that the island is operating at a different time than the rest of the world. That would just be too confusing to juggle. But when does seem to be one of the questions we need ask about the island.
Ok, that's it for now.

John | Feb 8, 2008 5:46:11 PM | #

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The theory that the D-team's off-island experiences were flash-forwards isn't true if we can at all trust Naomi. Naomi made it quite clear that the wreckage was found, and that there were no survivors of Flight 815.

Now, it is very possible, perhaps even likely, that Naomi was lying. However, although I think that she was aware of their survival, I believe when she said that the wreckage was found.

As for the polar bear fossil is concerned, I suspect that the island may be, in a way, on the edge of a mobius strip.

That is to say, if we were to consider time as a single planar surface in a loop, they would be on the edge. From their position, they are trapped between past, present, present, and future. The polar bear may have somehow escaped the island and traveled to the past-end of the surface.

If scientists really could find themselves "on the edge" of time, in a "resturant at the end of the universe" per-sec, they would undoubtedly wish to study it. Likely, there would be many unusual properties at such a place...

Eric | Feb 8, 2008 7:15:07 PM | #

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Eric- Good point about the Naomi aspect of my flash-forward theory. Maybe she was lying and that lie turned into the cover story after the Island "expedition".

All I know is, after "Through the Looking Glass", I am not making any assumptions.

Sean | Feb 8, 2008 7:50:28 PM | #

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I MISS MR. ECKO !

WHOLETRUTHY | Feb 8, 2008 11:08:49 PM | #

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Frank Lapidus says that he was supposed to be the one flying Oceanic 815. So he was supposed to be there, right? What if the others (Dan, Miles, and Charlotte) were supposed to be on-board as well? This would explain why Dan was crying, and why Charlotte keeps reading the papers. Miles (being psychic) would have known the plane was going to crash, so he didn't get on.

It has come up quite a bit that everyone is there for a reason. Abaddon, knowing who has to be there, sends the 4 to the Island to complete the group. The Island, or the world, needs all of them there to complete its end event. This is also why the Oceanic 6 must return to the Island.

Shaggysteve | Feb 9, 2008 8:28:22 AM | #

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I have been keeping up with THIS message board rather than others because everyone here are damn good at debating without calling someone stupid or ready to tear into each other's throats. In other words, I am dealing with adults here so I commend all of you.

But more theories/observations I picked up after reading some of the posts and actually taking part in the Find815.com game.

First, someone on here made a great point about the Others having been off the island like been. The main one in my mind is Richard Alpert. Now my whole thing is that I don't care how long the Otheres have been on the Island, they have to have money to do all of the stuff that they do. Are they being funded by someone or is there an Other out there in the real world with ties into a large economic source?
Also who was the food for that was dropped toward the end of Season Two? These things have been racking my mind because as a storyteller myself, I don't like to just throw things in for nothing and not come back to them. In other words, lets not forget a lot of things that have come in the past, even if they are minor to an extent.

One other thing is that people are mistakenly calling Alex Ben's biological child. Rousseau has gone on to say that her baby was taken from her and that would explain the fact why she rightfully smacked the crap out of Ben for saying take our daughter and hide her. It was as if Rousseau was saying, 'you mean MY daughter that you stole!' or something of that nature. And while we are on Rousseau, the virus that killed her crew could have been the gas that Ben released on the Dharma Initiative that killed everyone. Maybe Rousseau and her crew were on that Island at the time and it was just a case of Wrong Place, Wrong Time.

Finally, the Find815.com game says that the Black Rock ship disappeared around the 1880s, which doesn't make sense because 1) Slave ships would not be rolling during that time and 2) It was established on the show that the boat crashed in 1660's if I can recall correctly, time where slave ships would have been operational.

Also, can someone please help me understand which group works for who? There is the Hanso Foundation, Dharma Initiative, Maxwell Group, Widmore Industries... the list is getting longer. One final note before I go is that the Find815.com game states that the captain of the Black Rock was a guy named Magnus Hanso and the boat was owned by a company named New World Sea Traders and that t was eventually taken over by the East Ocean Trade Group. This company, the ECTG, was eventually bought out in the 1950's by the Hanso Group who renamed it the Allied Copenhagen Marine Merchants. Now correct me if I am wrong, but weren't those two dudes who sent Penny the coordinates Dutch?

Mark O. Estes | Feb 9, 2008 11:00:35 AM | #

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While I'm still partial to the Alternate Reality / Parallel Universe(s) theory, I am becoming less and less convinced of the time travel theory(ies). I find the point made by Pete (way up there) particularly persuasive: Desmond recognized the date on the printout (22 SEP 2004) as being both the date he missed pressing the button and the date of the plane crash.

True, the computer COULD be calibrated to off-island time rather than island time, but there is also the fact that Desmond said he'd been there 3 years and Jack wasn't at all confused by that ... and we know Des and Jack met shortly prior to Des setting out on his round-the-world boat race.

Anyway, I LOVED this episode. Loved the opening, the back info on the Freighters, etc. I loved Locke's and Ben's reaction when Hurley said "isn't the cabin back that way?" Speaking of Creepy Jacob and His Amazing Traveling Crack Shack o' Horrors ... can't wait to find out what THAT'S all about. Anyone else think Eyeball Guy looked kind of like Patchy (Mikhail)?

Dan | Feb 9, 2008 1:19:34 PM | #

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I believe there is some sort of time travel or alternate universe taking place. In last nigth a character was introduced with the name of Charlotte Staples Lewis (C.S. Lewis). There is an author with the same name that wrote the Chronicles of Narnia, and the four main characters went to Narnia where they aged; however, when they returned to England, they hadn't aged very much. I think something similar is happening on Lost; hence, the aging (or lack of aging) of Richard Alpert.

And I too think the man on the inside is Michael.

I love Lost.

David | Feb 9, 2008 4:31:44 PM | #

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Jason -- Holy Crap!! Good job!! That has to be it! Everything connects now. It's the only way it can all work. You blew me away! All of it! Now when watching, it's just figuring what universe they are on, etc. Holy Crap --- you should get an award!!

Also, David, great thinking! That is incredible!

RRN | Feb 11, 2008 6:14:45 AM | #

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I love this show! I love the complexities and the depth of it! I love that, after all this time, I still don't know what the heck is really going on. I hate shows that are too easy to figure out and don't challenge my brain. This show is an exciting challenge each and every week.

Dr. Rock | Feb 11, 2008 2:11:42 PM | #

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Since I DID admit up above that I just started watching and because not many people will be here this late in the week to scoff at me - could I ask a question?

WHERE do they get the bottled water they keep drinking? Did they find a hidden cache somewhere?

I'm really getting in to LOST but it's difficult because I haven't learned all the names yet and there aren't many places to ask where somebody won't call me stupid. :)

Jan | Feb 12, 2008 9:12:35 AM | #

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Jan, you are not stupid - you just haven't caught up yet.
They had original bottles of water from the plane. When those were empty, they had found a source of fresh water - up by the caves, I think - and re-filled the bottles.

adgirl007 | Feb 12, 2008 12:15:30 PM | #

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Abbadon is a Hebrew word that means "demon," and in the Old and New Testaments is associated with Sheol, or hell. Just thought I'd throw that in....

The CS Lewis connection is intriguing. Good and evil prevail in all his writings, of course, just as in King's books, especially The Stand.

But--if time travel becomes a major plot point/accelerator for this show, I'm going to yell for Fonzie to once again jump the shark. Seriously though, I hope that if time travel plays a major part in filling many of these plot holes so far, that it's done in an intelligent manner.

Kyle | Feb 12, 2008 2:01:21 PM | #

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I second that, Kyle.
Brilliant, Mark! I never thought that about Danielle's team. Would make perfect sense.

Lisa | Feb 13, 2008 12:41:56 AM | #

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