The Great 'Lost' Debate: How will 'it worked' work?
Twitter
Google
The ongoing series of "Lost" debates continues with our Dharmic sage, Ryan McGee, and yours truly.
Ryan cagily let me pick this week's topic, and after about a day and a half of trying to sort through just what in the great googly moogly happened in "LA X," -- you had your overt religious imagery re: Sayid, the brilliant Jack-Locke scene at the Oceanic lost-luggage desk, Hurley stepping up, Frogurt cab-blocking Kate -- I settled on two little words: "It worked."
Spoken post-mortem by Juliet to Sawyer, via Miles, her reassurance seemed like a way to bring James back from the murderous and despairing edge and give him something to live for. And we, obviously, know that Juliet's detonation of Jughead worked, at least in some way or other.
So my question to you, Ryan, is this: How did the "Sliding Doors" (big ups to Alan Sepinwall for that)/flash-sideways work? Jack, at least, seemed to show a couple of flashes of residual memory during the non-calamitous version of Flight 815. But what's that going to mean going forward? How and when is it all going to come together?
(And by the way, I know we're setting ourselves up to be six kinds of wrong about this, possibly as soon as next week. But by Arzt if it's not fun to talk about.)
Ryan McGee: I think it's more than just Jack that had a bit of leftover, pre-Jughead mental residue. Watch Rose and Bernard. The two people that seemed most at peace with their lot before the epic events of the finale seemed more blissful than ever in the Sideways reality. But Jack's small bloodstain on his neck shows that there will be consequences for Jughead's detonation, well beyond the fact that below him, at the bottom of the ocean, sits the freakin' Island with the Dharma-tattooed shark lording over it like he was the leader of The Others.
I like your phrase "coming together," since we're talking about two equally viable and "real" timelines that seem parallel, but in fact are coming together in a narrative vanishing point, as it were. In fact, "vanishing point" is a particularly apt phrase, in my mind. I'm glad to see that there's an effort being made to have both the timeline we've experienced so far have equal weight to the one introduced this past week. Having them equally matter makes this more than a fanfic exercise, as I think we both feared it might be. But at some point, these two timelines must converge. In art, the point of convergence is the "vanishing point," in which multiple perspectives become one.
My question to you: what are the forces at work that will bend these parallel timelines to meet down the line?
Rick Porter: Just saying "The Island" is probably too reductive. But I have to think -- if you'll allow me to continue hammering a point that I've already hit several times in these back-and-forths -- that people's actions in the sideways timeline will eventually lead them back to the show's present. "Lost" has always had free will vs. fate as one of its major themes, and while I would kind of love to see one of the characters in alt-2004 (side question: Does Oceanic 815's safe landing mean the Sox still win the World Series?) just kind of opt out and continue on with his or her life, I do think there's a certain inevitability that those who need to get back to the Island will do so.
As to how, and what happens then ... uh, yeah, I have no idea. While the show has forever hinted at the idea of these characters having more than one self (whispers in the jungle, "Bad Twin," etc.), I don't think we have enough evidence right now to see where the lines converge. I can see characters' actions in Sidewaysland triggering memories of the Island that lead them back -- and I can also see choices made on the Island allowing people to move back to the reality where the plane lands safely, if that's where they'd really rather be. (Wishful thinking, perhaps, but I think it would be an incredible curveball to throw.)
I'm sort of rhetorically spitballing at this point, though. What do you think of the possibility that one or more characters could just say no? Does "Lost" take its free will that seriously?
RM: If the Red Sox don't win the World Series in the sideways timeline, I might drive to L.A. from my Boston home, find the ABC lot, and slash Darlton's tires. To paraphrase a popular slogan from the last presidential campaign, this is NOT change I can believe in.
Anyways, it's clear that what happens in one timeline affects the other, though that relationship seems cloudy at best right now. I'm not so sure that the people will eventually meet so much as their respective actions will reach one conclusion. The person that connects these two timelines the most? Desmond, potentially groomed for years for this purpose. Alternatively, Hawking's incessant pushing of Faraday to break the time loop that ended in his death could have given Des' flashing ability a new spin or parameter.
In "The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham," Widmore told Locke that a war was coming. But did he say it had to happen ON the Island? I'm wondering if the war is truly being waged between the two timelines now. I'll turn it back to you to see what you make of that thought, as it appears my nose just started to bleed from the implications.
RP: I think you may be on to something there, is what I think of that. As has been the case with so much else, Locke will probably be a key player in all this -- if and when he has flashes of his island life, you can darn well bet he's not going to want to stay in a wheelchair for the rest of his life. Hurley's Sideways life is also a 180 from his Island life, while Jack, Kate, Sawyer and the rest have just as many issues to unpack as they did before they boarded the plane. Whatever "war" there is will also involve these characters fighting their own internal battles, I would have to think.
And that's probably as good, and as vague, a place as any to stop. Because we're only hours away from "What Kate Does," and it's time to focus our energy on that.
Add your voices to the discussion: What do you think Juliet meant by "it worked"?
Ryan invites you to join the hundreds already in Zap2It's Guide to Lost Facebook group.
Related:
The Great 'Lost' Debate: The fate of Benjamin Linus
The Great 'Lost' Debate: Men of science and faith
'Orientation: Ryan Station' podcast: Part 1 | Part 2
Photo credit: ABC
So the friendship that hopefully develops between Jack & Locke in sideways world will translate over to the world of the Island, in a similar way the neck-cut did? I kind of like the implications of that.
I think what will happen is each character in sideways world will come to realize that their life, though drastically different from the other one, does not make it better; Hurley might have money and good fortune, but not happiness; Sawyer w/o his revenge has no love for anyone and thus no purpose; Jack still needs to bury his father, physically and metaphorically, and Kate just needs redemption for her crimes.
Ryan, you refer to to time lines as parallel, but the plane landed in 2004 and the on-island action is in 2007. How can something that happened in 2007 affect 2004? specifically, the thing I am the most bothered by is if Shannon really wasn't on the plane? how could the detonation of jughead affect that?
"Parallel" means they run along side each other, that's all. Imagine two lanes of traffic, and don't get too bogged down in trying to make specific 1-1 relations between them until we have more of an idea of what's going on.
Not only wasn't Shannon on the plane, but neither were Walt and Michael. And Des was, but not in the way that everyone else was. Sun and Jin WERE there, but as many of you astutely pointed out, they look like they are not married anymore.
How are these things possible? That's what Season 6 is about. Don't worry if you don't know yet. I certainly don't pretend to know. All I can see so far, given evidence onscreen and in Darlton interviews since the ep aired, is that these two timelines are related. Above, I suggested the best way I can so far to try and explain how.
A book on quantum happenings called "Schrodinger's Cat" posited the following theory: imagine a closed box with a cat in it. The box also has a vial of poison that is triggered by an unknown/random event. The question is - without opening the box can we say if the cat dead or alive? Traditional thinking says that the cat is either dead or alive. But quantum theory says that the cat is BOTH dead and alive (both of these states are valid realities) - the cat will not jump to one of the states unless the box is opened and someone observes it.
Lost could now be doing a Schrodinger's Island - the detonation has created two valid realities. Now only an observation (or possible a choice?) has to be made for one reality to persist and the other to disappear. The people making that choice could be people who are "in the box" (so to say) - Jack, Kate, Sawyer, etc. It could be that all the participants experience the two realities and make a choice. What persists could be the most chosen among the two.
For example Juliet chose the reality where the plane landed in LAX coz there she is back with Sawyer, asking him out on a date. The others are yet to choose, and presumably will do so down the line.
Also remember that Desmond was at the epicenter of the first detonation when he turned the failsafe key - this gave him powers to jump between realities and even choose among them - which is how he was able to postpone Charlie's death. Now Juliet is/was in the same position - which is why she is able to jump between realities. Unfortunately she didnt live long enough in the island reality.
Going back to the Schrodinger's cat example, one possibility is that there needs to be an observer "outside the box" to make the box fall into one state. This external observer could be Desmond.
Well put, AC. They even talk about "Schrodinger's Cat" in "Lost University." Methinks I should rewatch some of those lectures again for some more clues.
Too bad Juliet died. She sure had a constant in the other universe, no?
Actually, I'm VERY disappointed that "Lost" decided to maintain two different storylines for its last season.
We've already had four seasons of flashbacks/flashforwards, half the cast off-island throughout most of season five AND Sun, Ben and Locke existing in a different timeline.
With only 42-minutes of actual show each hour, it feels like a cheat for the showrunners to split the remaining time between the on-island activity and the LAX parallel reality.
I guess I've just grown weary of this narrative style/plot device.
Sigh.
Juliet dying in the "real time" story is I think what has me most confused. if the two time lines converge at some point, what happens to the people that have died in the "future?" The lostaways may end up choosing what reality they want to end up in, but what does that mean for the island dwellers now? Will they all have to die on the island to be reborn in the real world?
On a side note, didn't the island look like it "sank" when Ben turned the donkey wheel. Would be pretty freaky if that's what really put the island on the bottom of the ocean, and not jughead.
I'm convinced that every coincidental odd look, glance, recognition, strange parallel that we are seeing are simply effects of two timelines that are very close together in their similarities.
The things about Lost that have always thrilled me are the mundane aspects that appear supernatural. Many of them have turned out not to be. Heck for most of season 1 we were convinced that there was a plague of some sort on the island. It turns out that the French team getting sick was the monster/temple altering them in some way that Danielle couldn't understand. As most things in Lost it turned out to be something completely different than it looked on the surface.
I think that we will find that these coincidencs in LA-X are going to be nothing more than the natural similarities of two very similar timelines.
oh, I forgot to mention my thoughts on "It worked", but my post leads to that.
I don't believe that Juliette was seeing anything other than Sawyer next to her and possibly some fleeting memories of another time brought on by a severe concussion.
Juliette had two important desires by the end of season 5. The first was to get off of the island. This was always a goal of hers. The second was never to have known Sawyer so that she would never have to lose him. I believe that her statement refers to these two things. First, her death gets her off of the island, second, since she's dying, she never has to lose Sawyer.
I believe that most of what was going on in LA-X parts I and II were mearly coincidental similarities that were inserted by the authors to make us, the audience, believe that there is a weird connection between these two particular timelines.
We'll see how my thoughts pan out, but from my experience reading other's thoughts on this show, usually people are thinking too far out there to be on target.
Wow. Your Schrodinger's Cat theory is pretty sound, AC. I like it. I like it a lot.
I was bothered a great deal about the island being "sunk," as it's the on-island stuff that I love the most -- and how can there be any on-island action when it's underwater? But the idea of the island being able to sink AND resurface... interesting. I don't see how that could be the case when Ben spun the donkey wheel, as we had a thread that followed the characters after the "bloop" - and they weren't underwater. But I suspect there IS a way to resurface the island, and that it's been done before. The Black Rock, anyone? I'm hoping that Richard's "chains" were indeed from that ship, and that we'll get to see the fate of it in an Alpert-backstory episode. PLEEEEEZE give us this man's story, Darlton - for the love of Jacob!